Author Topic: A good Democrat?  (Read 41728 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2009, 07:13:44 PM »

Using the resources of a collective body to further that bodies own goals is what modern government is all about.  I think the government should do more than provide self-defense and a court system.  You might want a return to 1776, but I do not, nor do most citizens.  I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.
Yes, but do the resources in question belong to "the collective body" and do they exist for the benefit of the collective?  Or rather do those resources belong to the individual who produced them, and for the benefit of he who earned them?

I think the root fallacy of socialism lies in denying the right of an individual to keep what is his.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 07:21:13 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Perd Hapley

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2009, 07:20:21 PM »
  Why would I think his agenda does not help you? 

Then I misunderstood you. 
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mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2009, 07:25:25 PM »
Government services?  Sure, everyone benefits.  Fire, police, sewer, water, public works.  
Welfare, "free" health care, yada yada?  What did that person do to deserve being just given whatever, over me?  Not a damn thing.  Creating an entitlement class is immoral.  
And as HTG says:  Prove that your socialist programs really are really so good for America. 

Health care is not free, it is paid for by the working class.  Me and you!  I don't mind paying for a poor persons health care, in fact I already do through higher insurance premiums.  

So, I assume you want me to focus on healthcare, rather than the other two things I listed?  Ok.

The health care systems in well run 'socialist' countries are better.  Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries are great examples.

Now, you can trot out the anecdotal horror stories if you like, and tell me how people flock to America for our superior private health care.  a) Those anecdotal stories are disproved by the fact that the citizens of those countries are far happier with their health care system than we are with ours, and are far cheaper b) Of course they do.  If Sweden had 350 million citizens they would not be flocking here, they would have the tax base to do it on their own.  You can't compare apples and oranges.

I imagine you will disagree with my assertion though, then we can both start trawling wikipedia and google for articles and statistics ad nauseum.

That is my basic point though...well run socialist countries top America on the human development index.  I don't understand how people can champion pure capitalism and privatization  as the cure for all ills, when it clearly is not.  Even in America, an enormous part of our cherished way of life is 'socialist' and anti-capitalist, but when someone suggests something socialist it is seen as somehow immoral by conservatives.  It isn't even an attack based on results, it is often an attack based on emotion.  I think you have to do better than that.

mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2009, 07:30:46 PM »
Yes, but do the resources in question belong to "the collective body" and do they exist for the benefit of the collective?  Or rather do those resources belong to the individual who produced them, and for the benefit of he who earned them?

I think the root fallacy of socialism lies in denying the right of an individual to keep what is his.

I think there has to be a balance.  The far side is Communism, and while I don't have any 'moral' objection to that, it has been shown again and again that it does not work.

The resources belong to the individual, but government is a social contract.  Everyone on this board gives up something for the benefit of the collective, because if the collective thrives so does the individual.

Again, I am not pushing Communism, and Communism != socialism.  America has been adopting socialist ideas since its founding, and our daily life is full of them now.  I simply think we should take it a step further and socialize our healthcare system.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2009, 07:33:00 PM »
Even if we assume that socialist countries have superior health care (a premise you will have to defend if you want it to be accepted) you still haven't addressed the root evil inherent in stealing a man's livelihood.  It may not be a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to me and a great many of the others out there who are being stolen from and enslaved.

At the very least you need to pay some lip service to this issue, and not merely dismiss it as you did earlier.  

Jamisjockey

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2009, 07:34:17 PM »
Oh I could list things that should be peeled back and deregulated for hours, but I'm sure you'll find a good, marxist reason to run down each of them.
"Something" is not everything.  
Every entitlement should be peeled back.  To say anyone deserves anything for free on the backs of the collective is immoral.  You say it is not.  I disagree, unilaterally and fully.

Even if we assume that socialist countries have superior health care (a premise you will have to defend if you want it to be accepted) you still haven't addressed the root evil inherent in stealing a man's livelihood.  It may not be a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to me and a great many of the others out there who are being stolen from and enslaved.

At the very least you need to pay some lip service to this issue, and not merely dismiss it as you did earlier. 

He
doesn't
believe
it
is
a
root
evil.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2009, 07:35:00 PM »
Health care is not free, it is paid for by the working class.  Me and you!  I don't mind paying for a poor persons health care, in fact I already do through higher insurance premiums.  

So, I assume you want me to focus on healthcare, rather than the other two things I listed?  Ok.

The health care systems in well run 'socialist' countries are better.  Canada, Australia, the Scandinavian countries are great examples.

Now, you can trot out the anecdotal horror stories if you like, and tell me how people flock to America for our superior private health care.  a) Those anecdotal stories are disproved by the fact that the citizens of those countries are far happier with their health care system than we are with ours, and are far cheaper b) Of course they do.  If Sweden had 350 million citizens they would not be flocking here, they would have the tax base to do it on their own.  You can't compare apples and oranges.

I imagine you will disagree with my assertion though, then we can both start trawling wikipedia and google for articles and statistics ad nauseum.

That is my basic point though...well run socialist countries top America on the human development index.  I don't understand how people can champion pure capitalism and privatization  as the cure for all ills, when it clearly is not.  Even in America, an enormous part of our cherished way of life is 'socialist' and anti-capitalist, but when someone suggests something socialist it is seen as somehow immoral by conservatives.  It isn't even an attack based on results, it is often an attack based on emotion.  I think you have to do better than that.


have you ever lived or gotten medical care anywhere other than the usa?  folks bleat about japanese healthcare.  its not  as good as the bleating.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2009, 07:39:32 PM »

have you ever lived or gotten medical care anywhere other than the usa?  folks bleat about japanese healthcare.  its not  as good as the bleating.

No, just research.

I have plenty of anecdotal evidence as well, but I don't feel that is valid in this type of discussion.

(Edit: I do think I can have an opinion without direct experience though, just like most of you do.)

Jamisjockey

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2009, 07:40:13 PM »
I received "free" health care in the Military.  I hope and pray to every available deity that I never have to suffer "free" health care again.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2009, 07:40:55 PM »
Why not make the free health care system optional, and let everyone choose whether they want to participate in it or not?

mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2009, 07:43:04 PM »
I received "free" health care in the Military.  I hope and pray to every available deity that I never have to suffer "free" health care again.

That is why I emphasize, "well run".

I simply try to demonstrate that it is possible to have a well-run tax-payer funded system.

Why not make the free health care system optional, and let everyone choose whether they want to participate in it or not?

I would be fine with that.  The system being debated now lets people retain private insurance, and they receive tax-credit for premiums.

Balog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2009, 07:45:25 PM »
Why not make the free health care system optional, and let everyone choose whether they want to participate in it or not?

Australia's system is actually a far better option than our current semi-socialist one. Medicare, Medicaid etc are what drive the costs up so much.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2009, 07:48:35 PM »
Quote
Why not make the free health care system optional, and let everyone choose whether they want to participate in it or not?

I would be fine with that.  The system being debated now lets people retain private insurance, and they receive tax-credit for premiums.
Nuh unh.  No, no, and no.  And Hell no.  Not at all.  Not even a little.

"Optional" would mean that I have a choice in whether or not you steal my livelihood to run your free health care system.  That ain't what they're proposing, not by a long shot.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 07:52:32 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2009, 07:54:11 PM »
Even if we assume that socialist countries have superior health care (a premise you will have to defend if you want it to be accepted) you still haven't addressed the root evil inherent in stealing a man's livelihood.  It may not be a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to me and a great many of the others out there who are being stolen from and enslaved.

At the very least you need to pay some lip service to this issue, and not merely dismiss it as you did earlier.  

If taxes are stealing and immoral, you cannot live in a country with any government.  I understand what you are saying, but I don't see how you can have a society that exists without that structure.  I hear many people talk about a Libertarian utopia, but I have yet to see one functioning.  Why is the current system of healthcare reform worse than social security?  Or Medicaid, or Grand Coulee Dam, or the Interstate system?  Jamis thinks I am unreasonable, but I don't see why healthcare reform is evil and deserves a tea party, but unemployment insurance does not.

You attack my ideas at the 'root level' but you all live in a society that employs an enormous amount of socialism.  Why weren't you throwing tea parties under Reagan?  He has plenty of socialist laws, and he pushed the deficit up.

If you are advocating a true Randian society...well, show me one that works first.  I don't demean your conservative ideas like some of you are demeaning my liberal ideas, I simply ask for rational responses based on reason and evidence.  America became great even with 'evil', 'immoral' socialism.

I think, perhaps, part of the problem is the wording.  'Socialism' is somehow more evil than 'taxes', because it seems to receive such a gut level reaction.  Perhaps because of the McCarthy era and socialism=Communism=evil?



MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2009, 07:54:34 PM »
If the Progressives had merely intended to take my money and to give it to a poor person, that'd even be tolerable. Except, in no country in the world do Progressives restrain themselves to just that. At no time through human history have socialists 'just' taken people's money and funded welfare with it. That would have already been wrong, but that is not the goal of Progressivism. The desire of progressives is to manage every bit of my life, for my own good of course.

If the Progressives merely intended to take my money for funding an education system in which the children of the poor would be taught, that would be a far superior system than what is experienced in many states in the Old World , where private schools are either actively suppressed by the government – like in Israel – or, as in Europe, regulated to the point of becoming virtually identical to public schools. And homeschooling is of course illegal.

Let us take healthcare. The plan is not merely to fund the health care of the poor, of course, but to control health care and related issues. As such they will tax cigarettes, and they will tax (and eventually no doubt ban) 'unhealthy' food and soda and so forth – already Congress is debating a tax on carbonated drinks. Because they're unhealthy of course. Similarly, they prohibit you from selling your own kidneys – though selling your own kidney is less dangerous than playing a season of football – or even, in some countries, your own sperm.

Now, I know what you will say. You will say – 'Microbalrog, but surely that is not oppression! After all you surely do not claim that you have some form of basic civil right to eat whatever the hell you choose! Why, if you did that, we'd have to cover your health care expenses!'

Forget, here, that had you not undertaken to underwrite my expenses, this whole argument wouldn't have existed. The problem here is that throughout its history, Progressivism has sought to regulate trade – in absolutely everything – and absolutely any kind of human activity. In the European countries you point your finger at, and Israel, which imitates them, the progressives had gone and regulated (or banned) fireworks, sweet drinks, video games, horse racing, automotive racing, firearm possession, and so forth. Where I live, automotive racing is illegal, and so are any and all fireworks, and so are energy drinks over a certain grade of caffeine content, and so is digital radio, and cryonics, and most traditional forms of burial known to man. Child protection services are allowed to seize children without trial and judicial review occurs only after the child has been removed, with the burden of proof on the family.

And of course, you're going to tell me that you're not oppressing me.

Because after all, there's no guaranteed right to unhealthy food, outline anywhere, right?
And there's no guaranteed right to NASCAR racing, right?
And no guaranteed right to hunt, and to be cryonically frozen, and to launch model rockets, and to launch fireworks, and play poker, right?

But the problem is, little tiny things add up. We already – as you pointed out – live in a universe where hundreds, thousands of little tiny things are made unavailable to us by the fiat of people who decided – based on their own little cultural prejudices, their superior college educations, knowing two languages rather than one – that they knew better than us. We have grown so accustomed to this universe that we now believe that this is normal, and this is freedom. We don't even know about the opportunities we might have had if we were free.

Progressives believe that since a few token rights – a vestige of free speech, for example – are not denied us, we are still free.

“So, you've already accepted all of those tons of infringements, just another little one, it won't hurt,” - they cajole.

Sometimes this is likened to a salami. A huge salami, and the Statists are taking turns taking up slice by slice. Medicare! Social Security! Income Taxes! Compulsory Education!

So just because you've managed to establish all of this 'anti-capitalist' stuff before I was born, I'm supposed to give up the rest of the Salami, too? Why don't you be a darling and give my salami back?
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mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2009, 07:55:06 PM »
I would be fine with that.  The system being debated now lets people retain private insurance, and they receive tax-credit for premiums.
Nuh unh.  No, no, and no.  And Hell no.  Not at all.  Not even a little.

"Optional" would mean that I have a choice in whether or not you steal my livelihood to run your free health care system.  That ain't what they're proposing, not by a long shot.

Doesn't hurt to ask for that in the bill!

mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2009, 07:58:14 PM »
If the Progressives had merely intended to take my money and to give it to a poor person, that'd even be tolerable. Except, in no country in the world do Progressives restrain themselves to just that. At no time through human history have socialists 'just' taken people's money and funded welfare with it. That would have already been wrong, but that is not the goal of Progressivism. The desire of progressives is to manage every bit of my life, for my own good of course.

If the Progressives merely intended to take my money for funding an education system in which the children of the poor would be taught, that would be a far superior system than what is experienced in many states in the Old World , where private schools are either actively suppressed by the government – like in Israel – or, as in Europe, regulated to the point of becoming virtually identical to public schools. And homeschooling is of course illegal.

Let us take healthcare. The plan is not merely to fund the health care of the poor, of course, but to control health care and related issues. As such they will tax cigarettes, and they will tax (and eventually no doubt ban) 'unhealthy' food and soda and so forth – already Congress is debating a tax on carbonated drinks. Because they're unhealthy of course. Similarly, they prohibit you from selling your own kidneys – though selling your own kidney is less dangerous than playing a season of football – or even, in some countries, your own sperm.

Now, I know what you will say. You will say – 'Microbalrog, but surely that is not oppression! After all you surely do not claim that you have some form of basic civil right to eat whatever the hell you choose! Why, if you did that, we'd have to cover your health care expenses!'

Forget, here, that had you not undertaken to underwrite my expenses, this whole argument wouldn't have existed. The problem here is that throughout its history, Progressivism has sought to regulate trade – in absolutely everything – and absolutely any kind of human activity. In the European countries you point your finger at, and Israel, which imitates them, the progressives had gone and regulated (or banned) fireworks, sweet drinks, video games, horse racing, automotive racing, firearm possession, and so forth. Where I live, automotive racing is illegal, and so are any and all fireworks, and so are energy drinks over a certain grade of caffeine content, and so is digital radio, and cryonics, and most traditional forms of burial known to man. Child protection services are allowed to seize children without trial and judicial review occurs only after the child has been removed, with the burden of proof on the family.

And of course, you're going to tell me that you're not oppressing me.

Because after all, there's no guaranteed right to unhealthy food, outline anywhere, right?
And there's no guaranteed right to NASCAR racing, right?
And no guaranteed right to hunt, and to be cryonically frozen, and to launch model rockets, and to launch fireworks, and play poker, right?

But the problem is, little tiny things add up. We already – as you pointed out – live in a universe where hundreds, thousands of little tiny things are made unavailable to us by the fiat of people who decided – based on their own little cultural prejudices, their superior college educations, knowing two languages rather than one – that they knew better than us. We have grown so accustomed to this universe that we now believe that this is normal, and this is freedom. We don't even know about the opportunities we might have had if we were free.

Progressives believe that since a few token rights – a vestige of free speech, for example – are not denied us, we are still free.

“So, you've already accepted all of those tons of infringements, just another little one, it won't hurt,” - they cajole.

Sometimes this is likened to a salami. A huge salami, and the Statists are taking turns taking up slice by slice. Medicare! Social Security! Income Taxes! Compulsory Education!

So just because you've managed to establish all of this 'anti-capitalist' stuff before I was born, I'm supposed to give up the rest of the Salami, too? Why don't you be a darling and give my salami back?

Arguing that there is a slippery slope does not mean the original idea is invalid.  If it were, nothing would ever be done.  I think nationalized healthcare is not too far down the slope.  Many here do.  I would say not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Anyway, that is all I have time for today.  I imagine I will have lots to respond to tomorrow.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2009, 07:59:49 PM »
If taxes are stealing and immoral, you cannot live in a country with any government.  I understand what you are saying, but I don't see how you can have a society that exists without that structure.  I hear many people talk about a Libertarian utopia, but I have yet to see one functioning.  Why is the current system of healthcare reform worse than social security?  Or Medicaid, or Grand Coulee Dam, or the Interstate system?  Jamis thinks I am unreasonable, but I don't see why healthcare reform is evil and deserves a tea party, but unemployment insurance does not.


Because...

Quote from: US Constitution
Article I, Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
...I don't see providing free health care listed anywhere.  Do you?

MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2009, 08:00:50 PM »
Quote
I think nationalized healthcare is not too far down the slope. 

You mistake me. I believe we are ALREADY too fat down the slope, and so is America.

Even if Congress does not pass a single new bill, there's STILL far too much government.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2009, 08:03:04 PM »
AWWW now you got me agreeing with mb  =D :O
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Jamisjockey

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2009, 08:04:13 PM »
That is why I emphasize, "well run".

I simply try to demonstrate that it is possible to have a well-run tax-payer funded system.

I would be fine with that.  The system being debated now lets people retain private insurance, and they receive tax-credit for premiums.

Well run my posterior.
Medicare/Medicaid/SS are all sucking from the system at an astronomical rate.  This government couldn't run a brothel successfully, much less any of the current crop of entitlements.  How could any of us in good conscious continue to allow the beast to feed from the trough?  
(sorry, had to channel a little longeyes there...  :laugh:)

Arguing that there is a slippery slope does not mean the original idea is invalid.  If it were, nothing would ever be done.  I think nationalized healthcare is not too far down the slope.  Many here do.  I would say not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Anyway, that is all I have time for today.  I imagine I will have lots to respond to tomorrow.

Many liberty minded people actually see health care as the bottom of the slope.  We've been slip sliding for decades.  Government has jammed its snout into every aspect of human development and life.  Most of us are sick of it, and have finally had enough.

Entitlements are immoral. There is an inherant evil to taking from one class and giving to another. A man (or woman) is entitled to keep what he earns, grows, makes or creates. Socialism is an evil of inexplicable proportions. Being given everythi...ng you need for subsistence in life lends nothing to the human condition.  A class that is just given all that it needs will never strive to be more, instead they consume all they are given and will strive to be nothing more than fat and dumb.  We're going on 70 years of welfare in this country.  Take a good hard look at the entitled class:  What has welfare done for them?  Keep them alive?  When's the last time you took a trip through the ghetto/trailer park/West Virginia?  Me, I'd rather be dead than survive on what was taken by force from someone else.
Your "free" health care/mandatory health care system is the bottom of the slope.  
JD

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Perd Hapley

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2009, 08:05:09 PM »
I would say not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Unfortunately, you are. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2009, 08:06:35 PM »
AWWW now you got me agreeing with mb  =D :O

Only because I say te same thing here I say in other threads?   =D =D
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Strings

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2009, 09:09:11 PM »
>I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen<

That's good: glad you're willing to fund this stuff!

>and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.<

Which is where we run into problems.

Here's a thought: how about if we start taking money from YOU for things *I* think need to be done? Sound fair?

>This government couldn't run a brothel successfully<

Which isn't an exaggeration: they literally ran a brothel into the ground. When you can't run a brothel at a profit, there's a major problem. And you want to see the same government take over healthcare?
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

Gewehr98

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2009, 09:15:44 PM »
Quote
Using the resources of a collective body to further that bodies own goals is what modern government is all about.  I think the government should do more than provide self-defense and a court system.  You might want a return to 1776, but I do not, nor do most citizens.  I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little after reading that...   =(

How'd that Margaret Thatcher quote go? 

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you will run out of other people's money..."
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 09:18:46 PM by Gewehr98 »
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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