Author Topic: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen  (Read 35045 times)

MechAg94

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2010, 04:39:59 PM »
But he is not saying anything about the cop.  His lawyer is.  And, if he wants to get anywhere with the lawsuit, he better get the facts right.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2010, 07:10:44 PM »
And, if he wants to get anywhere with the lawsuit, he better get the facts right.


not if all they are angling for is a outa court settlement payday.  after all they can release a partial story and it will be ceased upon  by a certain segment of the public eagerly   leaving out the knife is strategically convienent
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2010, 07:40:23 PM »
Quote
leaving out the knife is strategically convienent

Kinda like making up crap to raid a 90 year old womans house for drugs? 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2010, 09:37:13 PM »
i take that to mean you aren't comfy dealing with the reality of your own op?  understandable.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Scout26

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2010, 10:23:35 PM »
Maybe she was one of these......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygy7UDADXDg
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2010, 11:59:18 PM »
And, if he wants to get anywhere with the lawsuit, he better get the facts right.


not if all they are angling for is a outa court settlement payday.  after all they can release a partial story and it will be ceased upon  by a certain segment of the public eagerly   leaving out the knife is strategically convienent

For what purpose?

Are you saying he's trying to taint the jury pool?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2010, 03:09:47 AM »
no  he just wants to squeeze the insurer to settle
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2010, 02:41:22 PM »
This incident reminds me of:

"I'm the one man you don't boss, Woodrow."

Augustus Macrae, on his deathbed.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

RoadKingLarry

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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Tallpine

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2010, 11:47:20 AM »
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=headlines_widget

Cops say she pulled a knife on her.
Link also has the 911 call.


What exactly is wrong with lying on your bed not wanting to be bothered  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

dogmush

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2010, 12:26:51 PM »

Quote
Duran reported Varner had looked him in the eyes after he arrived at the apartment and said to him, "If you try and get the knife I will stab you and kill you. I killed four Japs in World War II and I would not bat an eye killing you."

Duran also reported, Varner talked of killing police again after being taken to Parkview Hospital in El Reno. "Varner told me she was going to kill every officer that was in her apartment when she got out. Varner told me she was going to snap my neck like a twig just like she did during World War II."



Read more: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-granny-gets-shocked-by-taser-sues-el-reno-police/article/3471297?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0sXhIreTA

It seems to me the citizens of El Reno need to have a long hard talk with their police department over the definitioin of terms like "Credible Threat" and "Minimum necessary force"

Even assuming the police report is 100% true and not skewed towards their side at all,  (A stech for me as when they were writing it they had to have realized they'd just tasered and hospitalized a granny.  CYA time if there ever was) but even assuming that, using a Taser on an invalid was a bad call.  this is one of those times that LEO's need to suck it up and do it the hard way a little.  You can't tell me that none of those officers could just take that knife away.  Yoiu don't have to be Chuck Norris to out knife fight a bed-ridden 90 year old.

On a related note, from the story:

Quote
He said Varner has had a series of health problems, including strokes. She uses an oxygen machine to help her breathing and can barely walk by herself. She uses an electric cart to get around and can see out of only one eye.
If ever there was an time to look at an attempted suicide and just say "OK, you had a good run" this was it.  As a society, we need to stop expecting cops, EMT's and the like to deal with stupid stuff like this and "save her life" =| . That's part of what leads to stupidity such as this.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2010, 01:14:19 PM »
What exactly is wrong with lying on your bed not wanting to be bothered  ???

maybe you should ask grandson that.   hes the one that called the cops cause he couldn't handle granny.  but his selective amnesia might kick in


"You can't tell me that none of those officers could just take that knife away.  Yoiu don't have to be Chuck Norris to out knife fight a bed-ridden 90 year old."

i've been stabbed  it hurt  coulda been worse  likely woulda hurt granny worse than a taser to be jumped   and again grandson wasn't up  to trying it but the cops are? heck in theory she likes the grandson
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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dogmush

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2010, 01:26:06 PM »
i've been stabbed  it hurt  coulda been worse  likely woulda hurt granny worse than a taser to be jumped   and again grandson wasn't up  to trying it but the cops are? heck in theory she likes the grandson

I've been stabbed too, yes it hurts.  However if you can't dis-arm a 90 year old woman, without weapons or injury to either party, you have no buisness being a police officer. 

And it might have hurt her worse, of cource if we're going to go with mights the taser could have killed her, or set the O2 rich environment on fire, or stepping on her O2 line could have killed her.

I'm not saying they needed to tackle and Rodney King her, but weapons weren't needed.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2010, 01:42:15 PM »
hard for me to say for sure  i wasn't there and don't know what the sop in that dept is for escalation of force.  and i'm not sure i wanna take grandson and the ambulance chaser as quoting gospel
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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dogmush

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2010, 02:01:44 PM »
hard for me to say for sure  i wasn't there and don't know what the sop in that dept is for escalation of force.  and i'm not sure i wanna take grandson and the ambulance chaser as quoting gospel

Not for me.  I've worked enough security and .mil guard gigs to stand by this statement when she's got a knife:

Quote
However if you can't dis-arm a 90 year old woman, without weapons or injury to either party, you have no buisness being a police officer.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2010, 02:16:11 PM »
so what were your rules on escalating force and how do you imagine they apply here?  last time i checked taser came before the laying on of hands   and with document-able good reason


http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:281919

http://www.westmont.il.gov/index.asp?Type=B_PR&SEC={B6B1B81D-14FF-4B37-B93B-88E8E89B1DEB}&DE={7E057ACC-5D68-4778-AD52-8A7922FCCA82}

http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=98583

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18168-tasers-safer-than-batons-and-fists.html


did your security and military gigs involve using tasers and give you a different perspective based on actual use?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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dogmush

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2010, 02:39:18 PM »
so what were your rules on escalating force and how do you imagine they apply here?  last time i checked taser came before the laying on of hands   and with document-able good reason


Escalating Force?  You're kidding right?  A bed-ridden 90yo woman with a kitchen knife is not a credible threat to a healthy man.  She just isin't.  Again neither of us were there, but I imagine (if I can borrow some of your snark here) that the first step might be to wait 5 min and see if she forgets you're there, or that she's reliving WWII. Or back everyone out of the room in an attempt to calm her down, or wait for the paramedics, because remember this was a medical call, or take the knife on those super tactical Kevlar gloves LE supply houses sell, or hell for that matter tell her Pres. Roseveldt needs her service in the ambulance downstairs.  This wasn't an EOF scenario, because (I repeat myself) there was no credible threat to anyone in the room.


did your security and military gigs involve using tasers and give you a different perspective based on actual use?

Nice articles. Can we just assume here that I did a quick google and turned up a couple articles where Tasers killed someone, or do I actually have to do it for you?

And yes, my jobs did include Taser training.  I've used one, and been hit with one before.  In general, it's a great less-lethal weapon.  It has it's limitations, but so do all weapons.  The key here is that a Taser is a WEAPON not a compliance tool.  Weapon.  Inside it's design paramaters it does a good job, but it's being used outside that either do to lack of training or lack of caring, IDK which.

But back to Granny the Ripper.  Having done a fair amount of physical restraining, and having some good pratical knowledge on the subject (Daddy, just being restrained in the past is not actually good knowledge on it) these officers used a weapon where they shouldn't have.

A single LEO, much less 10, should be expected to disarm and contain a 90YO bed-ridden women without a weapon or injury to either party.  If they can't, they're not good cops.  That's not subjective on my end, it's an either/or thing.  If they really couldn't contain this women without weapons, they lack the skillset to be good cops.

end of line


ETA: Just so I'm not accused of ducking your question, the rules that I was trained on for EOF are actually pretty long and convoluted. (.mil for you) but they all start with the presence of a threat.  One didn't exist here.  Granny wasn't going to leap up and actually stab anyone.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2010, 02:55:33 PM »
in a world ruled by common sense . i'd agree. but around here anyway they get told to zap before they grab em.  and the lawyers are what made it that way.  me i've been restrained the old school way  and i've been zapped  much rather be zapped. hurts a lot less.  heck granny got hurt worse getting grabbed and cuffed than she did getting zapped.  and if she survived it as close to deaths door as she was  how bad could it be?

i feel bad for  her thats shes alienated her own family that they are compelled to call the authorities but hey some of the old ladies get mean
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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dogmush

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2010, 03:23:01 PM »
i feel bad for  her thats shes alienated her own family that they are compelled to call the authorities but hey some of the old ladies get mean

Listen to the call.

Familly called for an Ambulance or paramedics, because they were concerned for her health and wanted medical profesionals to check her out.

Extreme alienation there.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2010, 03:34:00 PM »
i'm going from memory here but doesn't grandson say "i can't get her to do anything".

 we lost a great guy here a year or 2 ago   he had a fight with his family and said he was gonna end it all.  he went and borrowed a gun and his family "couldn't do anything with him" and called the cops.  he ended up dead when he refused to drop the gun and turned towards em.  heck if granny had been younger she might have fared worse
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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dogmush

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2010, 04:01:29 PM »
i'm going from memory here but doesn't grandson say "i can't get her to do anything".

 we lost a great guy here a year or 2 ago   he had a fight with his family and said he was gonna end it all.  he went and borrowed a gun and his family "couldn't do anything with him" and called the cops.  he ended up dead when he refused to drop the gun and turned towards em.  heck if granny had been younger she might have fared worse

Morale of the story?

Don't ever call the cops.  They'll either Tase or shoot your family.

Somehow, I don't think that's what you were going for.



The Grandson says:" I can't get her to tell me what she took."  That's as close as he comes to your quote.  The first line in that call was "I need an Ambulance" from the grandkid, and the last, from the operator was: "I alread started the Ambulance".

Why exactly were there 10 cops in the apartment?  What value did the bring to the EMS service? Is this some new defribulation technique that I'm unaware of?  This was a non-LE situation, that they forced themselves into, over-reacted to, and now are trying to justify.  They could always tell the guy "Hey, at least we didn't shoot her" right?

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2010, 04:41:10 PM »
 [popcorn]

Good stuff
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

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With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2010, 04:44:42 PM »
Dogmush, I'm not agreeing with the cops on this one, nor defending them.   But, in our system,  EMS doesn't enter the scene until it's safe. Potentially suicidal subject, regardless of who they might be, equals unsafe scene. We stage until the cops secure the scene and clear us in.

That being said,  these cops stepped on their wedding tackle while wearing cleats. It's not gonna end well for them, nor should it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 04:47:48 PM by AmbulanceDriver »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2010, 05:49:38 PM »
oh i think it'll be a small settlement and i doubt they can do much to the cops if they can point at their sop and say "see here it says taze em before you grab em" .  in fact they coulda probably shot her over the knife if that was what they were all about.

round here they respond cops to those kinda suicide calls too. again with reason . when one of the lost boys i counsel gives me one of those late nite calls i wear a vest when i show up  and i'm allegedly their friend 
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Taser happy police are scared of a bedridden granny on oxygen
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2010, 06:18:58 PM »
Quote
maybe you should ask grandson that.   hes the one that called the cops

No, he called for an ambulance.  ;/

Thankfully, I do know an old time sheriff who doesn't escalate a situation just because he can get away with it.  Unfortunately, he is not our sheriff but the sheriff of the neighboring county instead.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin