Obama Strongly Backs Islam Center Near 9/11 Site

[gunsmith]

FTFY



One side violated unconstitutional eavesdropping law, and the other committed assault and (possibly, perhaps attempted?) vandalism. So which side is "right"?

FTFY

intentional infliction of infectious insidiousness inducing insanity.
"if you build it they will come"

[Stetson]

I wonder what other stores/churches/temples are already in the area?

[Nitrogen]

You can stretch "politically motivated" to mean anything you want.  And the root word of "terrorism" is "terror".  Abortion doctor killings are not meant to terrorize other people.  They are meant to eliminate what the killer sees as a murderer.  As with any form of vigilantism, it is an act where a private citizen takes it upon himself to fill in for the justice system that he sees as failing to prosecute criminals.  In the mind of someone who kills abortion doctors, it is not meant to make some wide poltical message or instill fear in the masses.  It is an attempt to inflict capital punishment, albeit in an illegal manner, upon someone they see as a murderer.  Vigilantism yes, terrorism no.

I disagree.  If anti-abortion violence was limited to practitioners of abortions, you might have a point.  Problem is, Receptionists at clinics, as well as escorts, security guards (one of whom was a police officer) and nurses have also been targets of violence.

Do you think that killing a nurse or a receptionist or a security guard is vigilantism?

I still hold it counts as terrorism.

[Monkeyleg]

So a guy fired from his job who goes into his former workplace and shoots people who work there is a terrorist rather than a murderer?

[Nitrogen]

I wonder what other stores/churches/temples are already in the area?

There's a few strip clubs/sex stores in the area, as well as St. Peter's Catholic Church, Battery Park Synagogue, PJ Clarke's bar and grill, St. Paul's Chapel and the NY Department of Health within a block or two of the area.

[Nitrogen]

So a guy fired from his job who goes into his former workplace and shoots people who work there is a terrorist rather than a murderer?

What is someone like this doing that's politically motivated?

[Nitrogen]

BTW There's already a muslim meeting place, Masjid Manhattan, about a mile away from Ground Zero right now.
Should they move?

EDIT:  Apparently they already were forced to move in 2008, dunno why.

[Perd Hapley]

I disagree.  If anti-abortion violence was limited to practitioners of abortions, you might have a point.  Problem is, Receptionists at clinics, as well as escorts, security guards (one of whom was a police officer) and nurses have also been targets of violence.

Do you think that killing a nurse or a receptionist or a security guard is vigilantism?

I still hold it counts as terrorism.

Given that a get-away driver can be charged with murder if one of his associates is killed by police, and that, in a sane, progressive, humane nation, the nurses and security workers would be charged with conspiracy to commit murder...

One could probably go either way with the terrorism or vigilante charges.  In any case, if you want to point out some real "Christian" terrorists, there are probably much better examples out there, than the fringe Christian Identity nuts and a one-off abortion-doctor-killer.  Just sayin'.

[makattak]

BTW There's already a muslim meeting place, Masjid Manhattan, about a mile away from Ground Zero right now.
Should they move?

No, no. A mile sounds sufficient.

[roo_ster]

What is someone like this doing that's politically motivated?

Well, many marxists would ague that line every day of hte week and twice on Sundays.  Not that I buy it.

I think Ragnar does have the better point.  The more extreme anti-abortion verbiage talks about these docs as murderers and and the most far-out ones have implied that they ought to be killed.  Pretty specific.   Vigilantism suits their rhetoric.

If they wanted to engage in terrorism, hte better target is almost-mothers who have aborted their babies.  THAT would cause some serious mayhem & terror, especially if they targeted soem who had abortions some years ago, implying no woman who had an abortion--ever in the past--is safe.

OTOH, in support of Nitro's position are the bombing of abortion clinics.  But, as fistful wrote, they could very well be considered complicit.

Yep, it could be argued either way, but I think that Ragnar/fistful have hte more persuasive points.  Plus, I get tired of everything being declared terrorism.

[taurusowner]

There is a big difference from having a Muslim center already only a mile away from ground zero, and building one right next to it after the fact.

-The people building the Islamic center next to Ground Zero claim that they support mutual positive coexistence and understanding and mean absolutely no offense with this construction.

-Governor of New York David Patterson offered state support in selecting, acquiring, and building the center in a new less offensive location.

-The builders completely refused.

Why?  And before you say "well they don't have to.  They bought the land and that's just way it is", keep in mind that they still maintain that they mean this in a totally unoffensive and respectful way.  Yet when their actions are offensive, and they are actually offered help to move the site, they refuse. Why?

Claiming to be attempting to build mutual respect, yet refusing to do anything but the most offensive thing they can do.  Something doesn't compute.  And of course add in the fact that Muslims have historically built mosques on sites important to their enemies to show supremacy, and you start to have an idea that this is not quite as innocent as they claim.

I'll put myself in their shoes.  If I wanted to do something, and a lot of people found it offensive, would I take someone up on their offer to come to a compromise and allow me to do what I want, but in a manner or place deemed less offensive?

If I actually gave a crap about how offensive I was, than yeah I would take them up on the offer.  If I really didn't care how offended others were, than no I would not.  The Muslims in this case are not taking Patterson up on his offer.  That tells me that they don't care how offensive they are.  Ok, whatever.  BUT, they claim that they do care.  This means they are lying.  Which tells me something else beyond a simple Islamic Center is going on here, and they are not being forthcoming about it.

[kgbsquirrel]

FTFY

intentional infliction of infectious insidiousness inducing insanity.
"if you build it they will come"

Yes, thank you, I should have made mention of that. So, was this event held on a public thoroughfare (as it looks) or was this stretch of street rented from the city for the duration making it quasi-private property for the duration of the event?

[longeyes]

Free societies that invite authoritarian, collectivist elements are worse than naive, they are self-destroying.  Notice I said invite.  This is a problem that was created by liberals generally and by the State Dept. specifically.  I think we need to understand why; in fact we need to demand why.

[S. Williamson]

Gee, I notice how regularly it is enforced in America.  I know a couple of folks that converted from Islam.  Their relatives gave them a hard time about it, but I've known former Amish folks that got rougher treatment. 

Your argument is entirely and completely valid in third world theocratic hell-holes.  Not so much here.  Granted, there are fairly rare incidents of mostly immigrants from said third world hell-holes doing completely screwed up things.  Honor killings, female mutilation, etc.  It's not entirely an Islamic thing, it's a third world hell-hole thing.

Point conceded. 

[makattak]

Your argument is entirely and completely valid in third world theocratic hell-holes.  Not so much here.  Granted, there are fairly rare incidents of mostly immigrants from said third world hell-holes doing completely screwed up things.  Honor killings, female mutilation, etc.  It's not entirely an Islamic thing, it's a third world hell-hole thing.

True, I will admit, no Christian has ever tried to behead me.  Kill me, sure.  But not behead.  Then again, I did see some of the corpses yanked out of a few mass graves that would beheading look positively humane and quite civil.  Nothing like wiring someone up with steel cable, throwing them in a ditch, and burying them alive.  Sometimes with a bit of mutilation, rape, castration, etc first, just to spice things up, sometimes not.  Hey, Christians get bored too. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Muslims don't do evil things.  Believe me, I know they are capable of some impressive feats of evilness.  But trying to pretend that all Christians follow their religion's words on "peace" and "turning the other cheek" is entertaining, but not accurate. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/nyregion/18behead.html?_r=1

Yes, that third world hell-hole of Orchard Park, NY.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/US/arizona-police-hunt-muslim-father-ran-westernized-daughter/story?id=8890844

Gah! That third world hell-hole of Peoria, AZ.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3975211.stm

And of course, that hell-hole Holland.

There's more, of course.

[Stetson]

There's a few strip clubs/sex stores in the area, as well as St. Peter's Catholic Church, Battery Park Synagogue, PJ Clarke's bar and grill, St. Paul's Chapel and the NY Department of Health within a block or two of the area.

Just wondering if they can pick up the land on both sides and put in a strip club.

[Jamisjockey]

First they tell the Mosques where they can and cannot be.  Next, they tell you where you can and cannot worship.

[makattak]

First they tell the Mosques where they can and cannot be.  Next, they tell you where you can and cannot worship.

You mean, like, with zoning laws where they will make churches pay hundreds of thousands of dollars just for a plan before allowing them to expand?

That's already the case. The government is already telling people what they can do with their land. How is this any different?

[Jamisjockey]

You mean, like, with zoning laws where they will make churches pay hundreds of thousands of dollars just for a plan before allowing them to expand?

That's already the case. The government is already telling people what they can do with their land. How is this any different?

Well, there is the rub. Is there a zoning law in affect that should effect the mosque?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

How is this any different?

well how about because its directed at them specifically because of their faith....

[RevDisk]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/nyregion/18behead.html?_r=1

Yes, that third world hell-hole of Orchard Park, NY.

From the article (can't quote), she was more religious than he was, he had a history of domestic abuse and his counselor told her she wasn't in danger.  You're welcome to count this as proof of Islamic terrorism if every Christian dude who beats and kills his wife also counts as Christian terrorism.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/US/arizona-police-hunt-muslim-father-ran-westernized-daughter/story?id=8890844

Gah! That third world hell-hole of Peoria, AZ.

Respectfully...   Did you read what I wrote and what the article said?   Dude was from a standard third world theocratic hell-hole, specifically Iraq.  I do hope he rots in jail for quite a few decades.  What the hell kind of father does that to his own daughter?   But yea, this would illustrate perfectly "Granted, there are fairly rare incidents of mostly immigrants from said third world hell-holes doing completely screwed up things.  Honor killings, female mutilation, etc.  It's not entirely an Islamic thing, it's a third world hell-hole thing."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3975211.stm

And of course, that hell-hole Holland.

There's more, of course.

Finally found one, cool!   Not in America, but we'll still count it.  Dude held Moroccan citizenship, but he was born in Holland.   Second generation immigrant, which is close!  But no cigar for me.   But let's also look back at the original statement.

"Granted, there are fairly rare incidents of mostly immigrants from said third world hell-holes doing completely screwed up things.  Honor killings, female mutilation, etc.  It's not entirely an Islamic thing, it's a third world hell-hole thing."

Congrads, you found one example of a mostly "home grown" Islamic guy who did honor killings, etc.  Which I do not think disproves my original verbiage or intent.  I never said it doesn't happen.  Of course it friggin bloody does.  It's a pretty good example of why we really need to overhaul our immigration process to get less third world theocratic hell-hole types, and more folks like Viking and MB who want to become bloody Americans.  I also don't think that kind of screening should only be applied to Islamic third world hell-holes. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

are we gonna legislate away the  flds and tony alamo and all the others?   how about the mainstream churches where clergy abuse children?  heck we can eliminate a ton of pesky religions  which ones are on "our " list?

[makattak]

Respectfully...   Did you read what I wrote and what the article said?   Dude was from a standard third world theocratic hell-hole, specifically Iraq.  I do hope he rots in jail for quite a few decades.  What the hell kind of father does that to his own daughter?   But yea, this would illustrate perfectly "Granted, there are fairly rare incidents of mostly immigrants from said third world hell-holes doing completely screwed up things.  Honor killings, female mutilation, etc.  It's not entirely an Islamic thing, it's a third world hell-hole thing."

Respectfully, it IS an Islamic thing. Third world hell-holes are terrible places, yes. Those that escape them generally come here enjoy their lives and integrate happily into our first world country unless they are also islamists.

You may be able to argue that it is a third world hell hole AND Islamist thing. I find little correlation between other religions and mutilating/murdering their wives/children after they've come to the United States even from said third world hell-holes.

But maybe I'm wrong and you could find me a Sikh honor killing in the US or a Buddhist murdering someone for insulting Buddha.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

But maybe I'm wrong and you could find me a Sikh honor killing in the US or a Buddhist murdering someone for insulting Buddha.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj5BL-tVIpM


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

[makattak]

Further-

If this is just religious bigotry, do you think anyone would care if this were a Buddhist temple, a Pagan grove, a Sikh gurdwara, or a Hindu Temple?

This is not about bigotry. This is about Muslims celebrating their attack on the United States. I think Ragnar illustrated it perfectly, summarized:

If they claim it's about peace and brotherhood and refuse to accept help to foster acceptance when strife rather than brotherhood results, I tend to discount their stated purpose.

But that's just me. (And ragnar and millions of others)