How about Wisconsin?

[Scout26]

I know of guy who did 20 or 25 years a firefighter, retired.  Got a job in another town as a fire marshal, and retired again 10 or 15 years later.

Over $200,000 in pension each year.

[grampster]

Someone needs to have the courage to tell public employees that they are no different than the rest of us.  Millions of private sector folks have lost jobs, lost benefits, had pay cuts, have to pay more into benefit plans etc.  What makes them immune?

If we had a president who was not a sniveling cowardly socialist, he'd use his bully pulpit to explain what shared sacrifice during tough times is all about.

[Monkeyleg]

Someone needs to have the courage to tell public employees that they are no different than the rest of us.

NJ Governor Christie and teachers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkuTm-ON904

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y59zZTzRE3w&feature=related

[grampster]

Yeah, I've watched several of his speeches.  I guess what I meant is that too bad we don't have more leaders like him. We need a few hundred more just like him in state houses and Washington.

[bedlamite]

From another forum:

I just got off a conference call with other tea party leaders from around the state, and we are moving forward with this. Please forward to this to anyone who you think might be willing to attend.

A permit has been pulled and there will be a tea party rally entitled “I Support Scott Walker” on the steps of the Wisconsin capital at 12PM on Sat. morning. Because of the short notice, we need this to go viral very quickly. Those of you in the tea party movement in the state of WI should contact your area leaders to coordinate transit as soon as possible. We also need tea party members from other states to show up and support our effort. Please PM me with any questions, but confirming information on this including a formal press release should be hitting the net in various locations as you read this.

ETA: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116446159.html

[roo_ster]

From another forum:

Those without gov't jobs have to do their protesting on the weekends.

[ronnyreagan]

As for public employees being underpaid...

According to this they are underpaid. I'm not familiar with epi and they clearly have a bias, but assuming they're not straight out lying about those numbers they seem to have a case. This article mentions a cato institute study (this?) that says otherwise but that appears to be nationwide, not specific to Wisconsin and doesn't appear to have controlled for education level at all. Anyone have some other numbers to share on this tangent?

[Monkeyleg]

I've never heard of the Economic Policy Institute, so I took a look at their report. They use a lot of words answering a relatively simple question.

I noted that their address is in DC, which would lead me to believe that they may also be engaged in lobbying.

I then just did a Google search, and the latest news story about them was from yesterday, in which it was said that the Recovery Act (Obama's stimulus) cleantech investments "...have created or saved nearly 1 million green jobs, according to a report released today by the Economic Policy Institute..." This report was a joint effort by the Economic Policy Institute and the BlueGreen Alliance.

I don't think I need to take many more steps to find out where the bulls**t lies.

Having lived in WI since 1958, I can tell you that teachers, cops, and other public workers have a very sweet deal going.

The teacher's union controls Madison. Their lifetime health insurance isn't a Cadillac plan, it's a Rolls Royce plan, and the teachers pay very few dollars a month for it. I doubt that anyone on this forum could afford to buy such insurance.

[ronnyreagan]

(No numbers)

Yeah, I read the anecdotes you posted earlier and I said up front that the epi is probably going to be biased but at least they have sources to back up those numbers, that's more of what I'm looking for. The cato one clearly has an agenda too, but again, it's more to go on than some story about someone's neighbor having a "sweet deal." I'm kind of looking for a larger sample size than a half dozen, not that your stories don't make for interesting reading. 

[Monkeyleg]

Fine. Here's some comparisons of Wisconsin to neighboring states:

Financial Data for Wisconsin
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $3,571,389,694
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $1,719,827,769
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $196,466,650
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $6,730
Total current expenditures per student: $11,418

Financial Data for Michigan
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $6,022,723,390
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $2,765,379,038
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $289,372,186
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,523
Total current expenditures per student: $9,533

Financial Data for Minnesota
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $3,766,312,685
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $1,159,938,299
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $184,515,602
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $6,124
Total current expenditures per student: $10,826


Financial Data for Iowa
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $1,952,930,339
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $592,046,164
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $95,949,632
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,742
Total current expenditures per student: $9,741

Financial Data for Illinois
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $8,780,141,260
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $2,799,518,548
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $469,018,815
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,490
Total current expenditures per student: $9,762

Financial Data for Indiana
State Spending on Teachers
Salary expenditure on all teachers (including home schoolers, special education, non-certified teachers): $3,681,735,767
Benefits expenditures for teachers: $998,932,254
Instructional expenditures for teaching supplies: $97,488,650
Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum): $5,171
Total current expenditures per student: $9,342

Average Salary   Percent Change
Rank   2009   Rank   2008   Rank   2007   2008 to 2009   2007 to 2008   2007 to 2009
Wisconsin   24   $48,743.33   24   $47,365.00   18   $47,070.00   2.91%   0.63%   3.55%

Average Salary   Percent Change
Rank   2009   Rank   2008   Rank   2007   2008 to 2009   2007 to 2008   2007 to 2009
Michigan   17   $52,300.00   12   $53,410.00   8   $54,683.33   -2.08%   -2.33%   -4.36%

Average Salary   Percent Change
Rank   2009   Rank   2008   Rank   2007   2008 to 2009   2007 to 2008   2007 to 2009
Minnesota   21   $50,360.00   19   $49,725.00   17   $48,263.33   1.28%   3.03%   4.34%

Average Salary   Percent Change
Rank   2009   Rank   2008   Rank   2007   2008 to 2009   2007 to 2008   2007 to 2009
Iowa   45   $41,970.00   49   $39,035.00   48   $37,763.33   7.52%   3.37%   11.14%

Average Salary   Percent Change
Rank   2009   Rank   2008   Rank   2007   2008 to 2009   2007 to 2008   2007 to 2009
Illinois   9   $57,283.33   9   $56,505.00   11   $53,463.33   1.38%   5.69%   7.15%

Average Salary   Percent Change
Rank   2009   Rank   2008   Rank   2007   2008 to 2009   2007 to 2008   2007 to 2009
Indiana   30   $46,640.00   25   $47,245.00   23   $46,600.00   -1.28%   1.38%   0.09%


Now let's take a look at what those of us who pay (or, in my case, paid) in taxes for all this are/were concerned about, starting with the benefits:

Teacher's benefits as a percentage of total teacher expenditures:

WI: 48%
MI: 46%
MN: 31%
IA: 30%
IL: 32%
IN: 27%

Remember the Rolls Royce benefit package I was talking about? There you go.

Now, let's look at how the money is spent:

Total current instructional expenditures per student (teacher salary and curriculum):

WI: $6,730
MI: $5,523
MN: $6,124
IA: $5,742
IL: $5,490
IN: $5,171

Total current expenditures per student:
WI: $11,418
MN: $9,533
IA: $9,741
IL: $9,762
IN: $9,342

This is all from a website that appears to be for teachers. If you want more detailed information, you'll have to pay me a generous salary and set me up with a DC office.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

great stats  thanks  what site was that?  i posted that elsewhere and as soon as the libs get outa bed they will be screamin  so i need the source by about 10  10:30 am

[Monkeyleg]

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com

Oh, and by the way, months ago I compared the cost per student of education in Milwaukee to that of education here in Bubbaville (Decatur) AL. The cost per pupil here is much lower, the dropout rate is much lower, and academic scores are higher. All that the big money in WI is buying is benie's for the teachers.

The teacher's union has been the #1 most powerful lobby in WI for decades. No legislator has dared to cross them. Now you're seeing why. They'll drag kids out of school to use as props. They don't care about the kids, they care about the union.

WEAC, the Wisconsin teacher's union, has the system gamed. A person can't become a teacher in WI without getting a teaching certificate, and without being a union member. Bill Gates couldn't teach computer science in WI unless he got a teaching certificate and joined the union.

That's the way it is.

Or am I being too "anecdotal"?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

my favorite question to ask teachers is name 3 teachers who have been fired other than for screwing a student.  most can't name one

[AZRedhawk44]

my favorite question to ask teachers is name 3 teachers who have been fired other than for screwing a student.  most can't name one

You want to take THAT benefit away too?  Pretty soon no-one will want to be a teacher.  Sheesh!

[French G.]

Only fix I see is a lot of angry parents standing up and screaming in the local school board and town council meetings demanding that the teachers show up to work and educate their child. Push for resignations, elections and keep throwing out leaders until they get some that lead.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You want to take THAT benefit away too?  Pretty soon no-one will want to be a teacher.  Sheesh!

i know  i'm a mean spirited lil sob.  i love asking how is it that alone amongst professions teaching has no incompetent workers  no one ever gets the boot because they just can't cut it

[freakazoid]

Can someone sum up whats going on? It seems like any time I see the news it is all they are talking about and they always show a bunch of people protesting but I have no idea what is going on, couldn't actually hear it. Also, was there nothing else they could think of cutting than going after teachers, who aren't usually payed a whole lot although from some of the posts here it seems like WI teachers get payed a lot more than most.

[Monkeyleg]

Freakazoid, Wisconsin has a $3.6 billion budget deficit. The state has had a budget deficit for several years. In 2002, incoming Democrat Governor Doyle inherited a $1.2 billion deficit. He and the Democrat legislature increased that deficit to over $6 billion. Doyle took $2 billion in TARP money two years ago to temporarily plug the hole, but the deficit is still there.

One of the major sources of deficit spending is government employees, in particular their benefits programs. WI state employees have defined benefit pension plans (IIRC), and don't pay anything out of pocket toward their pensions. Employees, particularly teachers, have excellent health care benefits and pay little or nothing toward them.

Municipal employees in Wisconsin, through their unions, can engage in collective bargaining with the local, county and state governments. In most states this isn't possible, because it leaves the governments open to strikes by those employees. Wisconsin was the first state to allow collective bargaining, which was something that even FDR thought was a horrible idea.

Governor Walker is trying to eliminate collective bargaining for public employees because, as it stands now, many of the unions negotiate at the local level. Trying to solve the problem using the current system would result in some locals getting raises, some not, some getting benefits, and some not. It would be a patchwork, and wouldn't address the deficit. Since the municipalities receive state money for education and other services, the state has a role in this.

Walker is proposing that public employees pay half of their pension contributions each year instead of zero, as they do now. He's proposing that they pay 12% of their health care premiums. Neither of those requests is out of line and, in fact, would still be attractive percentages to many private sector employees.

If you have about nine minutes, watch this video of Governor Walker here . 

[ronnyreagan]

Walker is proposing that public employees pay half of their pension contributions each year instead of zero, as they do now. He's proposing that they pay 12% of their health care premiums. Neither of those requests is out of line and, in fact, would still be attractive percentages to many private sector employees.

Even if they're already making less than comparable private sector employees? People seem obsessed with how great their benefits are but seem to ignore total compensation. The statistic you pointed to as evidence of a Rolls Royce benefit package doesn't mean much - except that they consider benefits more important than take home pay. If benefits as a percentage of total teacher expenditures was doubled that would have no effect on how much they cost the state .

[brimic]

Even if they're already making less than comparable private sector employees? People seem obsessed with how great their benefits are but seem to ignore total compensation. The statistic you pointed to as evidence of a Rolls Royce benefit package doesn't mean much - except that they consider benefits more important than take home pay. If benefits as a percentage of total teacher expenditures was doubled that would have no effect on how much they cost the state .

If you want an apples to apples comparison to what public school teachers make vs private sector counterparts- take a look at private school teacher compensation. Private school teachers make about 80% of the salary of their public school counterparts AND have to pay for at least part of their health benefits AND they have to contribute to their own retirement plans (401Ks, etc).

Public school teachers are making much MORE in salary and benefits than their private sector counterparts. If they have a bitch about their compensation, they are always free to join the real world- noone is foprcing them to be a teacher.

Yes I realize that there are private sector jobs that pay more than public teacher jobs, but most of those are business owners, executives, bankers, etc. Its absurd for a group of people to think they would be entitled to more pay benefits in the private sector if they don't possess the special skills, knowledge and more importantly drive to go and take it for themselves.

[ronnyreagan]

If you want an apples to apples comparison to what public school teachers make vs private sector counterparts- take a look at private school teacher compensation. Private school teachers make about 80% of the salary of their public school counterparts AND have to pay for at least part of their health benefits AND they have to contribute to their own retirement plans (401Ks, etc).

These are the kind of numbers I'm looking for! Do you have a source for this? I know it's not a perfect comparison since private schools can be highly selective in student population and at the same time utilize public school resources when they need it, but it's still one of the better comparisons we have. The study I linked earlier has the stats for public employee compensation vs private sector employee compensation controlling for education level - but it wasn't specific to teachers. Do you know if there's any difference between education level (and therefore expected compensation) between public & private school teachers?

[Monkeyleg]

The statistic you pointed to as evidence of a Rolls Royce benefit package doesn't mean much

It means a lot in terms of the cost to taxpayers. It must also mean a lot to the public employees, or they wouldn't be rioting (excuse me, "protesting") in such great numbers.

The teacher's union health insurance plan would cost over $1100 a month in Wisconsin for a couple (don't know what it would be for a family of four). I know this because their health insurance plan is better than what the plumber's union has, and the plumber's costs $1100 per month for a married couple. I've also had to pay for an individual policy for myself, and the coverage that the teacher's insurance provides would be in excess of $1500 a month.

They get that coverage for life, and for next to nothing. That's worth a lot.

They're being asked to pay just 12.5% of the cost of that insurance. How many in the private sector pay just 12.5% for health insurance?

[ronnyreagan]

It means a lot in terms of the cost to taxpayers.

Total compensation is what makes a difference to tax payers. Whether 50% of that compensation goes towards benefits or if 50% of it goes towards fruit snacks, the cost to the taxpayer is the same. If a public employee and private sector employee both make 50K a year (total compensation), but the public employee gets 48% of that compensation as benefits and the private sector employee gets 0%.... they still cost the same to their employer. The private sector employee could go buy benefits with the 48% of their pay that the public employee has done for them automatically.

[Monkeyleg]

Total compensation is what makes a difference to tax payers.

True. The problem is that these costs are part of the retirement package, and the public pays the cost as long as the teacher and/or his/her spouse live. As people are living longer, the costs of these benefits packages are increasing. That's why we have the crises not just in Wisconsin with the teachers union and public employees, but nationwide for public employees, SS recipients, Medicare recipients, and so on.

Wisconsin is a right to work state, so if an employer decides he can't afford to pay union benefits, he can go non-union (although it's a difficult undertaking, as my BIL is finding out with his plumbing company). Or the employer can move elsewhere.

If the taxpayers of WI decide they can't afford the union benefits for teachers, they can't hire other teachers, as the union has a monopoly on the jobs. The taxpayers can move to another state, but it's easier to change the rules for the teacher benefits than it is to lose citizens.

Do you know if there's any difference between education level (and therefore expected compensation) between public & private school teachers?

Why is there such a fixation with education level? I'm not talking about you specifically, but with so many people in general.  Education level in and of itself isn't a measure of competence or performance, for teachers or doctors or engineers or any other profession.

[ronnyreagan]

Why is there such a fixation with education level? I'm not talking about you specifically, but with so many people in general.  Education level in and of itself isn't a measure of competence or performance, for teachers or doctors or engineers or any other profession.

I put the reason right there in the parenthesis. People with higher education generally make more money. Same thing with experience. That isn't a measure of competence or performance either but if you're going to compare apples to apples you need to take those kind of things into account because in the real world they affect what people get paid.

Maybe your question was more just a way of saying it shouldn't be this way?