Good News/Bad News for Montana Gun Owners Today

[Tallpine]

I already have a permit but signed up for a Saturday class at the end of next month.  I should probably learn a few things.

I just never bothered with jumping through their hoops.

When I really needed to CCW, getting a permit might have been a problem for the very reason that I needed one (small town politics being what they are  ).

I carried anyway 

[41magsnub]

MT HB 271 - the kinda sorta permit-less CWP bill - made it past the Senate with the amendments mentioned earlier.  It is going back to the house where it is expected to pass again.

[gunsmith]

I was under the impression Montana was cooler then NV, so you can't ccw in a bank?? weird! Can you open carry?

[41magsnub]

We have some oddities in our firearm laws around suppressors and concealed carry...  that is for sure.

We nearly cleared them up this year and would have mostly done so had there not been a disinformation campaign by FWP and overall confusion in the Senate Judiciary committee, the recording of which is one of the more painful things I've ever listened to.

If you are bored and can deal with having to use RealPlayer (curse my backwards state!) here is the audio from that meeting:
http://leg.mt.gov/css/Committees/Session/Minutes/AudioMinutes.asp?MeetingID=12910

[41magsnub]

oookay...  the House did not like the amendments on HB 271 done by the Senate and it is going to a conference committee.  It is still probably going to go through.

the audio on this is not yet available.

Also, now HB174 (suppressors when hunting) may not be all the way dead.  The MT Stockgrowers Association which along with the police officers association and the FWP opposed it is softening its stance now that they are in posession of better information.  Everyone is riding the members of the Senate Judiciary to reconsider.  Nobody is holding their breath but it is possible.

[KD5NRH]

I can't imagine why anyone would need to carry a gun into a bank, when you're possibly carrying large amounts of cash 

I don't go into the bank with large amounts of cash; in the drive-through, I can keep my gun under my leg the whole time.  Inside the bank, it would have to be holstered and concealed for much slower access.  Besides, I leave the Blazer in gear, so I have a really heavy V6 bullet ready to clear a path and take me away just by moving my right foot.

[Tallpine]

Never bring a V6 to a V8 fight 

[41magsnub]

HB 271 is moving on to full floor votes in the house and senate as amended.

They left it open for municipalities to allow or disallow CCW via this bill as they see fit but if you have a permit, these are not going away, then nothing changes for you.  At least this is what they said in the audio...

I fully expect my hippie town Missoula to try to block this at the city level if it becomes law.  My Senator was the most vocal opponent to changing the law, he actually went off on why CCW is not needed anyway and how people should not have to live in fear that the person next them is "packing".  He of course pretensed that by talking up his gun chops how he carries on his ranch and shoots coyotes.

When Vermont carry was brought up one guy brought up that sure it's worked for them for a couple hundred years, but MT is bigger.  More land..  sure.  population density though we are at 10% of what Vermont's is with only fewer in Wyoming (barely) and of course Alaska.

[Matthew Carberry]

If I recall correctly the first version of AK shall-issue had municipal opt-out, if we did it only lasted a year or so til it was fixed in the Legislature.  There's no reason MT can't do the same on the opt-out and the training requirement.

I was trying to confirm AK's carry history and found a thread at highroad.org from 2003 when "Vermont Carry (with permit available)" was still just a bill in the Legislature.

Amazingly there was some half-hearted support for what we will now probably call a "Montana Carry" amendment ("Permitless CC, with permit available, but with training required") if it was necessary to pass our law.  

I forgot that was ever a fear.  

So, "Montana Carry" will be "permit available for reciprocity but not required for concealed carry in state, but proof of a training class is required to be possessed while CC-ing without the permit".

At least the training isn't recorded by the state anywhere so it can't be used as backdoor registration.  

"Montana Carry" will be a "third way" between standard "Shall-Issue" and "AK/AZ/WY Carry" (no permit or training required for carry but available for reciprocity) and  "Vermont Carry" (no training required and no permit available at all).  It might be more attractive or realistic for some states that can't seem to muster the votes for true AK/AZ/WY Carry.

If it can be provided free or cheap, there's worse burdens in the world than requiring people to get training they should be getting voluntarily anyway, if it increases the number of states going permitless.



Here's the link from back when having five (six if NH passes) permitless of any kind states was just a fantasy.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=22408&page=2&highlight=alaska+carry+history

[41magsnub]

HB 271 is past the house and is heading to the senate floor for a vote.

HB 174 (the suppressor hunting one) may come back to life.  The organizations that opposed it were the stockgrowers association, law enforcement, and the fish and game.  The stockgrowers association has dropped their opposition to the bill and we are pushing on the senate judiciary committee to reconsider it.  I'm still not holding my breath but it is possible!

[Matthew Carberry]

As far as the local "opt out" goes, get it passed first, so you have something and the anti's are stuck, then bring the following from SAF's suit against NYC higher permit fees in the city versus upstate to the attention of the powers that be in Missoula and the Legislature.

73. State laws that unequally burden the exercise of fundamental constitutional rights
for citizens who live in a particular municipality can only be upheld where the disparate burden
is itself narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest. See Illinois State Bd. of
Elections, 440 U.S. at 186 (“appellant has advance no reason, much less a compelling one, why
the State needs a more stringent requirement for Chicago”).

Can Missoula claim any interest that similar sized cities that won't opt out also have yet decide isn't "compelling"?

[Grandpa Shooter]

I may have missed where anyone explained the rationale of hunting with a suppressor. If I missed it please point the way, if not humor me and tell me why anyone needs a suppressor on a hunting rifle.  You can buy noise suppressor head phones, so why the suppressor?

[41magsnub]

Let me answer back with my own questions:  Why not?  What does need have to do with it?

[KD5NRH]

I may have missed where anyone explained the rationale of hunting with a suppressor. If I missed it please point the way, if not humor me and tell me why anyone needs a suppressor on a hunting rifle.  You can buy noise suppressor head phones, so why the suppressor?

If not for the Federal regulations, a suppressor's cost would be more in line with what it actually is, and as such, it would be cheaper than a good set of earmuffs.

Besides, we require mufflers on cars rather than just telling everybody to wear earmuffs.

[Matthew Carberry]

On a practical note.  Say you shoot and get your whatever, now the rest run to the next county.  You may have ruined the hunting (temporarily anyway) for everyone within earshot.

Or say it's a multi-use area, or within (just inside , one assumes) earshot of residences, why bother everyone else with the noise?

On Kodiak and Afognak the big bears know that when they hear a shot it means there's a free deer dinner over-that-away.  So now you have to let the bear take your deer (there's no lawful defense of life or property for game) and risk a confrontation.

Being quiet in the woods, hunting or not, is just polite and good sense.

[Grandpa Shooter]

On a practical note.  Say you shoot and get your whatever, now the rest run to the next county.  You may have ruined the hunting (temporarily anyway) for everyone within earshot.

Or say it's a multi-use area, or within (just inside , one assumes) earshot of residences, why bother everyone else with the noise?

On Kodiak and Afognak the big bears know that when they hear a shot it means there's a free deer dinner over-that-away.  So now you have to let the bear take your deer (there's no lawful defense of life or property for game) and risk a confrontation.

Being quiet in the woods, hunting or not, is just polite and good sense.

Thank you.  Your answer makes sense.

[Matthew Carberry]

Thank you.  Your answer makes sense.

It was a good question. 

[41magsnub]

GS - I apologize if my answer came off as snotty.  I am getting really tired of the snide "what do you need that for?" responses from the locals and it spilled over into here.  My questions still stand though. 

The only opposition to allowing suppressors outside of a range beyond what amounts to "they are icky gun things and I don't like them" have been the fair chase folks and the FWP game wardens who have admittedly never heard a firearm with a suppressor on it fire and turned down multiple opportunities to do so.  The FWP guys went into the meetings with disinformation and falsehoods.  The rep for the police officers association could only say he opposed it, he could not articulate any reason why when prompted.

When using supersonic bullets in any caliber the suppressor only suppresses the muzzle blast and not even all of that.  The supersonic crack of the bullet is still there.  As far as fair chase goes, if I shoot at a critter and miss they are still going to hear that crack as the bullet goes right over their back.  People a long distance away are still going to hear that crack as well as as what is left of the muzzle blast.  What it mainly accomplishes is to reduce the immediate noise right in front of the shooter down to safe or almost safe noise levels without hearing protection.

With subsonic ammo it is much quieter.  Of course with said subsonic ammo it has a very rainbow trajectory cutting down the range it can be used at and the sorts of game it is used for.

Here is a video of a suppressed .30-06.  You can clearly hear the supersonic crack..  not very quiet is it?  Following it is the same guy on the same day shooting the same rifle unsuppressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nahIkVpcFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftT6QgwEBhU&feature=related

[Grandpa Shooter]

No offense taken 41.  I asked only because I had never heard of anyone who hunts wanting a suppressor.  Having grown up in the big heavily treed Northern NY before it became a socialist playground for the downstaters, and now living in the great open of Arizona, I would not have thought to put a suppressor on a hunting rifle.

I don't have any real opinion or opposition to it, just wanted to know why.

[Matthew Carberry]

It passed the Senate Second Reading today!!!!

http://montanahuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2011/03/28/permitless-carry-hb-271-passes-senate-second-reading/

From what I understand that means it now goes to the Governor.

"Montana Carry" - Permitless carry with proof of training

[41magsnub]

Correct, Governor "Branding Veto Iron" Schweitzer is next.  Hopefully he signs it.  He has an A NRA rating but he is a (D).  I can't speak for the last round in the Senate since I don't know the stats, but the gun bills including this one have been going more or less down the party line thus far (R-yea, D-nay).  It ain't over yet.

[41magsnub]

Not very coincidentally I am taking a CCW class from Gary Marbut this Saturday.  I'm going to ask him if he is going to make us little laminated wallet cards when we pass :)  I already have a permit but it just seems like the thing to do.

[Tallpine]

Not very coincidentally I am taking a CCW class from Gary Marbut this Saturday.  I'm going to ask him if he is going to make us little laminated wallet cards when we pass :)  I already have a permit but it just seems like the thing to do.

He ought to give you a ccw badge, too  


I guess I gotta find a somewhat painless way to take a "class" - what's the fewest hours of bullshit that you have to sit through ...?

[41magsnub]

He ought to give you a ccw badge, too  


I guess I gotta find a somewhat painless way to take a "class" - what's the fewest hours of bullshit that you have to sit through ...?

Oh you!   /limp wrist

[Tallpine]

 

I just looked through some course info online - looks like you have to sit through being explained the difference between revolvers and semi-autos, and how to clean a gun .... 

 All this to put on a coat