Author Topic: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic  (Read 11653 times)

roo_ster

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http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/267189/sectarian-violence-mark-krikorian

"In the Islamic world, democracy equals dead Christians."

http://bigpeace.com/dfriedman/2011/05/08/egyptians-enjoy-new-freedom-to-kill-christians/

When Muslims get some freedom of action, how do they use their freedom?  To kill Christians living among them. 

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roo_ster

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Ron

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 09:16:24 AM »
I'm all in favor of the recent events in the middle east.

Once all the nations over there have representative governments it will make it easier to formulate foreign policy.

If a country with a representative government chooses to become our enemy it makes it easier to choose overwhelming force in a conflict.

If a country is ruled by a dictator or oligarchy, esp a government we have helped prop up, it becomes more complicated in choosing a response, take Pakistan for example.

Lets let them fly their freak flag freely.

Lets let them reap what they choose to sow.

Let the Christians come here and be free, it is what we do.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 09:19:33 AM »
1. Egypt still has no democracy. It has military rule.

2. In a nation of 33 million, an outburst of violence which leaves 12 dead (on both sides) is a blip, not a trend marker.

3. The church was attacked on accusations that a person was being held there against their will - hardly a mark of religious tolerance.

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Ron

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2011, 09:20:39 AM »
1. Egypt still has no democracy. It has military rule.

2. In a nation of 33 million, an outburst of violence which leaves 12 dead (on both sides) is a blip, not a trend marker.

3. The church was attacked on accusations that a person was being held there against their will - hardly a mark of religious tolerance.


The "extremists' always have a "legitimate" excuse for their outrage.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 09:23:00 AM »
This seems to be - if true - a perfectly legitimate excuse for outrage.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Ron

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For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 09:48:20 AM »
1. Egypt still has no democracy. It has military rule.

2. In a nation of 33 million, an outburst of violence which leaves 12 dead (on both sides) is a blip, not a trend marker.

3. The church was attacked on accusations that a person was being held there against their will - hardly a mark of religious tolerance.



Ummm... how many muslims were dead in the muslim attack on the Christian church? I guess I missed the part where muslims were dying as a result of muslim against Christian violence.

And, I guess we just need an imam to claim that after a Christian woman is actually a muslim! Free the muslim woman (who has appeared on TV to say it's not true) Free the muslim woman!
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 09:51:37 AM »
2. In a nation of 33 million, an outburst of violence which leaves 12 dead (on both sides) is a blip, not a trend marker.

Also, I like the way you phrased that. Very nice.

"An outbreak of violence" "leaves 12 dead (on both sides)"

Really makes it sould like mutual combat. And "an outbreak of violence" rather than a directed attack against Christians.

Phrasing it that Muslims attacked and murdered 12 Christians and injured almost 300 others is just too judgemental, huh?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 10:06:31 AM »
Quote
Ummm... how many muslims were dead in the muslim attack on the Christian church? I guess I missed the part where muslims were dying as a result of muslim against Christian violence.

The identity of those dead is not known, AFAIK.

The leader of the Copts claimed all of these dead were Christians. Of course he would claim that.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2011, 10:11:51 AM »
Note that even the heinous murder of 12 people - assuming this is what occured - is a blip in a 33-million-man country.

It would be like saying that a Klan lynching, were one to occur in the United States today, is evidence that "Democracy Movement" translates as "Dead Africans" in American English"). That would be rubbish. So is the idea that this attack somehow means that Egyptians do not deserve the God-given rights of all men because  some Egyptians committed a murder.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 10:25:19 AM »
Note that even the heinous murder of 12 people - assuming this is what occured - is a blip in a 33-million-man country.

It would be like saying that a Klan lynching, were one to occur in the United States today, is evidence that "Democracy Movement" translates as "Dead Africans" in American English"). That would be rubbish. So is the idea that this attack somehow means that Egyptians do not deserve the God-given rights of all men because  some Egyptians committed a murder.

Actually, my argument is not that they should not have self-rule.

My argument is that Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization (as evidenced here by the persecution of the Coptic Christians.) Enemies have the right of self-determination as well.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 10:29:06 AM »
And it's not one incident in a country of 33 million. It's a pattern now that they are "free" of the Mubarak dictatorship:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/08/egypt.clashes/index.html?eref=edition
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

longeyes

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 10:37:11 AM »
Christians are being killed by Muslims in significant numbers in many places, not just Egypt.  

The fact that Egypt has a military government is symptomatic.  

Who is denying the Egyptians their "God-given rights" other than the Egyptians themselves?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 10:37:31 AM »
And it's not one incident in a country of 33 million. It's a pattern now that they are "free" of the Mubarak dictatorship:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/08/egypt.clashes/index.html?eref=edition

This is a report of the same incident.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 10:38:41 AM »
I'm also not clear how this is different from Mubarak's evil reign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts#Sectarian_attacks_since_1970
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makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 10:47:08 AM »
This is a report of the same incident.

And it includes mention of the recently previous muslim attacks on the Copts.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 10:53:31 AM »
I'm also not clear how this is different from Mubarak's evil reign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts#Sectarian_attacks_since_1970

According to your article, 30+ have died this year (and we're not even halfway through.)

Also according to your article, the worst period was 1992-1998 where 127 Copts were killed. That's an average of ~22 per year.

This year is on pace to be more than three times that average of the "worst" period.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AZRedhawk44

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 11:08:23 AM »
All this reminds me of the 2A propaganda list, showing the death toll of the unarmed around the world when rounded up by their respective governments.

Just goes to show that self defense is equally necessary in democracy, anarchy, religious fundamentalism and despotism.

Here's to wishing that someone would airlift 10,000 crates of surplus mosins to suburban Cairo and drop them randomly through the neighborhoods.  Those that want peace would have the power to preserve it around themselves, and those that want to impose control on others would find a conflict to die in and we'd be rid of them.  If you want to impose control, you're a Statist and I'm happy with you dying in your Civil War of choice, whether Muslim or Coptic Christian.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 11:17:01 AM »
The fall of Saddam was devestating for Christians in Iraq, and the pattern is repeated in Egypt.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2011, 11:18:46 AM »
According to your article, 30+ have died this year (and we're not even halfway through.)

Also according to your article, the worst period was 1992-1998 where 127 Copts were killed. That's an average of ~22 per year.

This year is on pace to be more than three times that average of the "worst" period.

In what way is this any kind of reflection on the non-existent Egyptian democracy? There is no democracy yet in Egypt. No elections were conducted.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2011, 11:22:47 AM »
In what way is this any kind of reflection on the non-existent Egyptian democracy? There is no democracy yet in Egypt. No elections were conducted.

Actually, my argument is not that they should not have self-rule.

My argument is that Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization (as evidenced here by the persecution of the Coptic Christians.) Enemies have the right of self-determination as well.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MechAg94

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2011, 11:25:28 AM »
This seems to be - if true - a perfectly legitimate excuse for outrage.
Micro, the way I read your posts here, I get the idea that you are inclined to believe the Muslims when they say someone was held against their will, but do not believe the Coptic Christians when they say the 12 people killed were all Christians.  Is that true? 

I'm not sure I believe either one, but when it seems the Muslims are the ones guilty of mob violence, I would tend not to believe their excuses.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2011, 12:24:04 PM »
I'm not inclined to believe anyone. I've explicitly said that holding someone against their will would be awful if true.

But I think it's not possible for the Christians or the Muslims to know the identities of all those killed in a mob violence scenario. I doubt the people who actually killed know that.
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makattak

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2011, 12:39:56 PM »
I'm not inclined to believe anyone. I've explicitly said that holding someone against their will would be awful if true.

But I think it's not possible for the Christians or the Muslims to know the identities of all those killed in a mob violence scenario. I doubt the people who actually killed know that.

So, the muslims showed up to attack Copts and their church and since, at the moment of the killings, they couldn't be sure they were killing Copts, it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt? After all, they may have thought they were killing Manchester United fans!

Seriously, this wasn't a peace protest. This wasn't mutual combat. This was an attack on a church. Your attempts at moral equivocation are at best bewildering.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: "Democracy Movement" Translates as "Dead Christians" in Arabic
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2011, 01:10:17 PM »
Quote
So, the muslims showed up to attack Copts and their church and since, at the moment of the killings, they couldn't be sure they were killing Copts, it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt? After all, they may have thought they were killing Manchester United fans!

Strawman.

Quote
Seriously, this wasn't a peace protest. This wasn't mutual combat. This was an attack on a church. Your attempts at moral equivocation are at best bewildering.

Strawman.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner