Author Topic: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?  (Read 95559 times)

De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2012, 02:03:19 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/us/911-tapes-released-in-killing-of-florida-teenager.html

a lot will depend on whether it was kid or zimmerman yelling for help    and whether zimmerman shot from ground

Yeah, none of that will matter much if it can be shown that he accosted the boy.

Zimmerman is in a world of pain.  And by the looks of it he deserves to be.

Roo ster, if you knocked a guy down for chasing your kids and he shot you, I highly doubt the DA amd grand jury in your neck of the woods would be congratulating him.

The kid (which he was) had a right to defend himself from aggressive, bizarre rentacop behaviour.   That's why whether he beat rent-a-cop down isn't the critical issue. 

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2012, 02:10:58 PM »
That's why whether he beat rent-a-cop down isn't the critical issue. 

even for you thats a record
rarely has one person been more wrong

i wonder if they can enchance tapes and prove who cried for help

and i do want to know more about why kid was suspended from school for 10 days. family was a mite vague

tactically there were 2 major errors

1 following and confronting kid
2 kid being too macho to run away  he was 70 feet from his dads g/f's place when he died

testosterone does not improve decision making
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2012, 02:15:24 PM »
In what state is it legal to attack someone, and then shoot him for using non-deadly force to defend himself from you?   Answer - none.

Think about this for a hot sec - if the law gave Zimmerman the right to shoot, how could the kid not have had a right to defend himself under the same law????   We now have proof that he believed Zimmerman was chasing him.  He reasonably would have believed Zimmerman was up to no good.  And he had no duty to run away.

So whered the kid's right to self defence figure into your analysis?  Or did it?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RevDisk

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2012, 02:25:13 PM »

De Selby and others, this is all based on conjecture and bias. Wait a while and let the facts come out rather than argue based on pre-conceived bias. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2012, 02:30:42 PM »
can deselby support "zimmerman attacked the kid! zomg"

as far as i know zimmerman was the one who had the wounds on the head
and was the one who called cops. always a good thing in the whos the bad guy after action matrix
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Chester32141

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2012, 02:39:01 PM »
As stated earlier we all know Zimmerman did wrong to exit his vehicle and chase the deceased, doubly wrong since the 911 dispatcher told him not to.  What bothers me is the attempt at the press to color the issue by posting so many pictures of the deceased that are obviously dated ...
 :police:
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dogmush

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2012, 02:44:37 PM »
Think about this for a hot sec - if the law gave Zimmerman the right to shoot, how could the kid not have had a right to defend himself under the same law????   We now have proof that he believed Zimmerman was chasing him.  He reasonably would have believed Zimmerman was up to no good.  And he had no duty to run away.

What part of being followed constitutes threat of "Imminent use of force"? Zimmerman could have followed him down street asking him any question he wanted without triggering the "kid's" right to self defense.  Asking what you're doing, even in an ahole-y fashion isn't neccessarilly a threat.

Quote
whats the law in fla with gated communities? was the kid trespassing?

Depends, but probably.  Most gated communities around here are owned by the HOA's and are "private" property.  The HOA's have pushed trespassing charges on folks they don't want.  Some aren't, depending on how the subdivision was originally drawn up.  Was he cutting through or visiting a resident?  That also makes a difference on the trespassing.

What is really going to make the difference is the "kid's" response when Zimmerman got out of the car and asked what he was doing.  Or, more likely, whether the investigators/jury belive Zimmerman's account of that response.  Following him and asking what he was doing in the neighborhood was probably not the best judgement call, but it's not illegal.  Basiclly, who got physical first?  And since there's only one story, is that story credible. At least one law enforcment agency seems to think it is.

Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2012, 02:57:38 PM »
The neighborhood watch group here have explicit instructions to observe and report only.

No accosting, interrogating, following, brandishing, etc., and for good reason.

I am curious if this FL community is the same - I'll bet that it is.

I fear with this case that Zimmerman is going to be a terrible example of what not to do.

I would hope that a challenge to the stand your ground law would be more positive for the one standing their ground.

If Zimmerman turns to be a hair-trigger hate-mongering aggressive *expletive deleted*bag, then the law could be struck down, or lose it's teeth, which would be bad for the rest of us good folks.


de selby-

It is way too early in the process to pass judgement.
There is no need for a lynch mob just yet.
Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher

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dogmush

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2012, 03:53:11 PM »
de selby-

It is way too early in the process to pass judgement.
There is no need for a lynch mob just yet.

I fear a lynch mob is exactly what the newspapers want.  Folks that KNOW he's guilty regardless of the facts of the case.  Lot's of froth and demands for JUSTICE, to hell with the law.  That's what these same papers did with Casey Anthony.

brimic

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2012, 04:37:52 PM »
Quote
I fear a lynch mob is exactly what the newspapers want.  Folks that KNOW he's guilty regardless of the facts of the case.  Lot's of froth and demands for JUSTICE, to hell with the law.

Who cares about the law when you are the Fifth Column Fourth Estate.
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MechAg94

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2012, 06:07:32 PM »
In what state is it legal to attack someone, and then shoot him for using non-deadly force to defend himself from you?   Answer - none.

Just to answer this particular statement.  You are wrong.  In Texas, deadly force is justified in under threat against life or serious bodily injury.  Someone beating on you can cause serious bodily injury and that has been supported by court cases.  I am pretty sure Texas isn't the only state with that legal definition for justified use of deadly force. 

However, if the "victim" started the whole mess, that muddies the waters on trying to claim self defense.  I sat as a juror on a case where a guy attempted to claim self defense, but it came out that he had just robbed the guy so self defense wasn't really valid. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2012, 06:40:35 PM »
As stated earlier we all know Zimmerman did wrong to exit his vehicle and chase the deceased, doubly wrong since the 911 dispatcher told him not to.  What bothers me is the attempt at the press to color the issue by posting so many pictures of the deceased that are obviously dated ...
 :police:

Well that's simple. Race riots sell newspapers.

Look at Rodney King. The beating he got was wrong, no matter how you cut it, but an unedited verison of the tape that showed him resisting and grappling with the police before hand would have had a higer "SSDD" factor for everyone watching. Shrug... LA Burned, Reginald Denney took cinder blocks to the head, Korean shopkeeps were armed with Mini-14's and AR's on the rooftops... but the ratings were awesome!   =|

As the dead-tree editions circulation figures collectively circle the drains, and come nearer to the bitter end every year, and probably for awhile after as the revenue streams and staffing models for the electronic editions stabilize, I fully suspect this will get worse before it gets better.

Add to that the economy is down. We've got a likely one-term black POTUS, and weather wise, summer seems to have started two months early across much of the U.S.... I suspect the summer of 2012 will look a lot more like a banner year in the 1960's for news and unrest than it will the boring and sedate "history has ended" 1990's.

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MillCreek

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2012, 06:46:54 PM »

However, if the "victim" started the whole mess, that muddies the waters on trying to claim self defense.  I sat as a juror on a case where a guy attempted to claim self defense, but it came out that he had just robbed the guy so self defense wasn't really valid. 

This is key. I am aware of case law and jury instructions in several states providing that if you are the aggressor, you are not entitled to a presumption nor a jury instruction for self-defense.  Even if it all goes to crap and you end up having to kill someone to prevent your own death or severe bodily injury.  The reasoning is that you started it, and you must bear the consequences of the actions thereto.
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2012, 06:48:35 PM »
In Zimmerman's shoes, I would have observed at a distance and waited on the cops.

Knowing myself, though, and being in the kid's shoes, it would have been like this:

"Hey, were are you going?"

None of your business.

"Hey, where have you been?"

None of your business.

"Hey, what have you been doing?"

None of your business. Get out of my face.

"Hey, come here!"

*expletive deleted*ck you.
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TommyGunn

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2012, 07:13:41 PM »


Tommy, we know the kid had a right to be there because we have proof that he was walking home from the store.  



One report I heard stated that Zimmerman had a bloody injury.   Could it be .... just maybe ..... this "kid" was doing more than just "walking home?" ;)
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2012, 08:03:48 PM »
Just to answer this particular statement.  You are wrong.  In Texas, deadly force is justified in under threat against life or serious bodily injury.  Someone beating on you can cause serious bodily injury and that has been supported by court cases.  I am pretty sure Texas isn't the only state with that legal definition for justified use of deadly force. 

However, if the "victim" started the whole mess, that muddies the waters on trying to claim self defense.  I sat as a juror on a case where a guy attempted to claim self defense, but it came out that he had just robbed the guy so self defense wasn't really valid. 

You declared I was wrong, then went on to repeat what you quoted from me - you can't attack people and then claim self defense when they respond with force.

The facts we do have make it almost inescapably bad for Zimmerman.  How on earth would this kid have ended up punching him, while being the aggressor?   That's the relevant fact - unless young trayvon was the aggressor, it was actually his right to repel Zimmerman by force under the castle doctrine laws in Florida.

Zimmerman has no right of self defense against another's lawful use of force. 

Now, based on the phone calls from both, what are the odds that trayvon did something which would make him legally the aggressor?

I'd say pretty low, which is why if I were zimmermans attorney, I'd recommend he invest in a gym membership now while he has time. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

DittoHead

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 08:10:33 PM »
However, if the "victim" started the whole mess, that muddies the waters on trying to claim self defense.   
This part seems pretty clear - Zimmerman started the whole mess. He is very clearly the one who followed the kid and engaged him. According to everyone, including Zimmerman, the kid was trying to get away from him (at least to start with)

Now, based on the phone calls from both, what are the odds that trayvon did something which would make him legally the aggressor?
Well it's possible that when Zimmerman chased the kid down and finally caught up to him that he politely asked him his name and residence and offered him a ride home but the kid flew off the handle and tried to claw his eyes out. Doesn't seem likely in the least but it is possible and in that case Zimmerman would be justified.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2012, 08:24:48 PM »
Ditto head, the problem for zimmermans defence is that there's a witness to the moment of their encounter. The boy was on the phone to his girlfriend the moment Zimmerman caught up to him.

The kids last recorded words?  "why are you following me!"
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

dogmush

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2012, 08:55:20 PM »
Quote
The kids last recorded words?  "why are you following me!"

And do you have some evidence that the rest of that conversation wasn't something like this:

Quote from: hypothetical world #1
"I'm part of the neighborhood watch, and I'm following you because we get a lot of prowlers around here.  I called the cops already."

"What?!? *expletive deleted*ck you cracker!! call the cops on me? I'll *expletive deleted*ing kill you!!"

[punch]

[bang].

Because I'll bet even money that's roughly what Zimmerman's lawyer is going to say happened

De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2012, 09:12:15 PM »
And do you have some evidence that the rest of that conversation wasn't something like this:

Because I'll bet even money that's roughly what Zimmerman's lawyer is going to say happened

How believable is that going to be, when Zimmerman either gets on the stand to testify or doesnt't?  It's lose lose - no jury is going to buy it given the tapes and his history. 

I'm predicting now that, if the grand jury indicts, he is toast
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

DittoHead

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2012, 09:20:04 PM »
Because I'll bet even money that's roughly what Zimmerman's lawyer is going to say happened

According to this Zimmerman claims he was attacked from behind, never mentioned the "conversation." Although that's second (third?) hand from the police.

Quote
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said.

Doesn't make much sense that the person he was chasing attacked him from behind.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2012, 09:24:34 PM »
According to this Zimmerman claims he was attacked from behind, never mentioned the "conversation." Although that's second (third?) hand from the police.

Doesn't make much sense that the person he was chasing attacked him from behind.

Yeah, except that we know from zimmermans calls and from the call the victim was on that this isn't the case.  He was looking right at the kid when he got out of the car.

And, we know approximately what the kid was thinking in his own words - having a weirdo follow you slowly and then get out of the car to confront you should give rise to a self defence claim.   He would have been perfectly justified in belieiving zimmerman was a threat to him and responding accordingly.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Ron

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2012, 09:44:21 PM »
Could go either way from what I've read.

A wound to the back of Zimmermans head and the grass stains all support his contention he was jumped from behind.

The witnesses are all assuming the screams were from the young man who ended up dead.

The cops are playing their cards close, eventually more info will be forthcoming.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 09:50:27 PM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2012, 09:48:58 PM »
One report I heard stated that Zimmerman had a bloody injury.   Could it be .... just maybe ..... this "kid" was doing more than just "walking home?" ;)

Maybe, just maybe, the wound was self-inflicted.....
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Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2012, 09:51:05 PM »
You declared I was wrong, then went on to repeat what you quoted from me - you can't attack people and then claim self defense when they respond with force.

The facts we do have make it almost inescapably bad for Zimmerman.  How on earth would this kid have ended up punching him, while being the aggressor?   That's the relevant fact - unless young trayvon was the aggressor, it was actually his right to repel Zimmerman by force under the castle doctrine laws in Florida.

Zimmerman has no right of self defense against another's lawful use of force. 

Now, based on the phone calls from both, what are the odds that trayvon did something which would make him legally the aggressor?

I'd say pretty low, which is why if I were zimmermans attorney, I'd recommend he invest in a gym membership now while he has time. 

If you were his attorney, you should be fired for making prejudicial statements without knowing all of the facts.
Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher

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