Author Topic: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?  (Read 95560 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fitz

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #301 on: March 28, 2012, 01:46:41 PM »
No, don't you understand? It's not racism or harassment if the perpetrators are black
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #302 on: March 28, 2012, 01:55:07 PM »
No, don't you understand? It's not racism or harassment if the perpetrators are black
  in a doubly ironic twist its not been black folks that take that position as much as it is white folks.  and usually white folk who live in all white hoods, send their kids too private schools etc
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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zxcvbob

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #303 on: March 28, 2012, 02:12:35 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/28/elderly-couple-forced-out-home-after-tweet-claims-killer-trayvon-miller-lives/#ixzz1qONII6KM?test=latestnews 

more responsible behavior

They should get a couple of heavily-armed skinheads to housesit while they are out.  The skinheads would probably pay THEM for the opportunity.   [ar15]
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Angel Eyes

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #304 on: March 28, 2012, 03:15:41 PM »
Quote
The tweets were traced back to a man in California and the address was also reportedly retweeted by director Spike Lee to his almost 250,000 followers.

Does this couple have a case against Spike Lee?
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MechAg94

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #305 on: March 28, 2012, 03:25:54 PM »
Does this couple have a case against Spike Lee?

IMO, yeah.  I heard he hasn't retracted it when it is becoming common knowledge the information is false.  However, it depends on what actual damages there are.
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TechMan

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #306 on: March 28, 2012, 03:38:13 PM »
US Representative wears a hoodie while speaking on the floor of the House.

Booby Rush from IL
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makattak

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #307 on: March 28, 2012, 03:40:37 PM »
US Representative wears a hoodie while speaking on the floor of the House.

Booby Rush from IL

Did you mean to make that typo in his name?  :laugh:
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TechMan

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #308 on: March 28, 2012, 03:43:45 PM »
Did you mean to make that typo in his name?  :laugh:

Typing too fast at work.  :laugh:  :laugh: I like it and will leave it.
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Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

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Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

geronimotwo

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #309 on: March 28, 2012, 05:07:59 PM »
Why would that have mattered when 911 operators have no authority? 

Stay in the card or follow on foot, keeping his distance would have been good if possible. 

sometimes all it takes is a sggestion.
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cordex

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #310 on: March 28, 2012, 05:15:15 PM »
Just finished reading through this whole thread.

Honestly, I initially - with the limited and biased information I had - felt the shooting was unjustified.  I don't think I'm in that camp any longer.

If Zimmerman attempted to lay hands on Martin, I could see the justification for Martin to respond with force sufficient to inflict the injuries sustained by Zimmerman.  I am unaware of any indication that this took place.  If Zimmerman did not attempt to touch Martin in any way, I do not see how any of Zimmerman's other claimed, known or likely actions (following in a vehicle, following on foot, verbally challenging, calling a police non-emergency number, etc.) would justify a violent response from Martin.  It's hard to say whether deadly force was called for after the beating commenced, but getting one's head bashed into concrete or a weapon being wrestled over could justify such a shoot.

In short, I agree with the "wait for evidence" crowd, and am confused by the "Justice for Travon" crowd.

Some other thoughts:
1. I have only called the police twice in my life.  Once to report a girl getting shoved into a car and once because a bunch of kids were shooting at each other in front of my house.  You know, valid reasons.  That said, folks trying to use "OMG, he like called the cops a lot!!11!" as reason to label him mentally unstable are uninformed.  My best friend is a cop and when I've done ride-alongs with him, guess what he tells folks?  "If you see anything unusual or suspicious that you just want us to check out, don't hesitate to call the non-emergency number.  If it's urgent, call 911."  I can completely understand someone who spends time looking around his neighborhood for bad things to call the non-emergency number a lot.
2. Following Martin on foot was inadvisable and I wouldn't do it, but I don't see it as the bloody glove that De Selby seems to.
3. This case is no longer about Martin and Zimmerman and hasn't been since people decided to be outraged about the race of the participants.  You know, the evil white hispanic guy and the black choir boy.

MechAg94

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #311 on: March 28, 2012, 07:55:13 PM »
I agree with you cordex, except that early on I was just confused why so many people were looking to throw Zimmerman under the bus just due to over analyzing 911 tapes that really didn't tell you what happened. 
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Angel Eyes

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #312 on: March 28, 2012, 08:42:26 PM »
IMO, yeah.  I heard he hasn't retracted it when it is becoming common knowledge the information is false.  However, it depends on what actual damages there are.

The couple have hired an attorney:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/28/justice/florida-teen-spike-lee/index.html

Quote
The McClains have hired Orlando attorney John Morgan, who said they might have a civil claim against Lee. "Fortunately, this couple is not about that right now."
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Chuck Dye

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #314 on: March 28, 2012, 10:01:23 PM »
Only a few things are clear to me:

The usual suspects are taking their pleasure (and profit) from the usual strokes.

In the end, very few of those who gain will deserve their gain, very few of those who lose will deserve their loss.

A remark about waiting for the DVD so I can pause, rewind, slo-mo, and single frame fell apart with the realization that the credits for production, direction, scripting, dialog coaching, costuming, makeup, etc. may well have more meaning than the content.

I am grateful all my friends and family live well outside the riot zones should Zimmerman not be punished to the satisfaction of the riot prone.  (As a trucker delivering to some vulnerable spots, I will pay close attention to events at appropriate times, as, I am sure, will our dispatchers.)
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agricola

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #315 on: March 28, 2012, 11:11:04 PM »
In short, I agree with the "wait for evidence" crowd, and am confused by the "Justice for Travon" crowd.

"Wait for evidence" is the only sensible crowd, though as I said earlier in the thread there was a strong suggestion - at least according to the reports that had been circulated - that the initial investigation had not got to the stage where they were emphatically able to say (and more importantly demonstrate) what had happened, and questions still (at least in public) remain about what Zimmerman did that night.  I do think that the family of Martin are entitled to have an effective investigation into his death, one would hope that the grand jury will get to the bottom of things in an open and honest way.

Also, whilst we are talking about self-defence issues, perhaps some of you will be interested in this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9169449/Coroner-rules-father-used-justified-force-to-kill-burglar.html
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #316 on: March 28, 2012, 11:13:06 PM »
Wow, what a thread.  Now, to address all the foaming at the mouth about legal standards here - the statute set by courts everywhere including Florida for initial aggressors to withdraw is insanely high.  It will not work to say "I stopped running" when chasing someone.  You only regain your right to self defence with actions so blatant as going home and sleeping the night, or getting down on your knees and begging for mercy.   The defence is not available if you were wrestling, or simply moving a new direction after you gave chase..  Then there's that phone witness who says the words were "what are you doing here?" from Zimmemrman.  Considering he's the one who shot somebody, he'll have a hard time showing the jury that's not credible.  But it wouldn't matter if his statement was taken as true - the bar for withdrawal is much, much higher than simply ending your run.


Also, as I said to CSD - anyone who doubts it, give these facts to a lawyer you trust and ask him if he'd say you're in the clear to do that.   Feel free to come on here and demonstrate what a "real lawyer" tells you about this scenario under your own state's law.



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cordex

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #317 on: March 29, 2012, 12:07:04 AM »
Wow, what a thread.  Now, to address all the foaming at the mouth about legal standards here - the statute set by courts everywhere including Florida for initial aggressors to withdraw is insanely high.  It will not work to say "I stopped running" when chasing someone.
You have yet to demonstrate that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor. 
Running toward someone and/or asking them what they are doing are not in and of themselves sufficient cause to respond with force.

Jamie B

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #318 on: March 29, 2012, 12:35:42 AM »
Also, as I said to CSD - anyone who doubts it, give these facts to a lawyer you trust and ask him if he'd say you're in the clear to do that.   Feel free to come on here and demonstrate what a "real lawyer" tells you about this scenario under your own state's law.

A real lawyer's opinion at this point carries no more weight than any other opinion.

Get over yourself.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #319 on: March 29, 2012, 12:47:49 AM »
To be an aggressor per the Florida statute requires physical contact... As I pointed out earlier.   
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #320 on: March 29, 2012, 03:03:32 AM »
To be an aggressor per the Florida statute requires physical contact... As I pointed out earlier.   

Yeah, that contention was totally and completely wrong - unambiguously so, for anyone living in FL.   I'm sorry to be so blunt, but we have members in FL on this thread and I would strongly urge them all, whatever their opinion of de Selby, not to consider it an accurate statement of FL self defence law.
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De Selby

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #321 on: March 29, 2012, 03:06:09 AM »
You have yet to demonstrate that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor. 
Running toward someone and/or asking them what they are doing are not in and of themselves sufficient cause to respond with force.

Okay, listen to the 911 tapes - Zimmerman chased after the kid ran away.   Isn't it reasonable to think people who run away from you are scared of what you might do to them?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

mtnbkr

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Re: stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?
« Reply #322 on: March 29, 2012, 06:55:53 AM »
13 pages of noise stops here.

Chris