Author Topic: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage  (Read 40315 times)

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2012, 12:40:52 AM »


In the early '80s I had a bumper sticker that read:
NUKE ALL THE UNBORN GAY COMMUNST WHALES FOR CHRIST

I was stationed at Vallejo CA at the time, got a few dirty looks over it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

BobR

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2012, 01:16:30 AM »
Quote
When my future wife was in the hospital and we were co-habitating with no family in the immediate area, the doctors wouldn't even tell me what was going on..... A same sex couple would probably experience the same thing.

Just curious, wouldn't a reciprocal medical power of attorney alleviate this particular problem? This is something I haven't really thought of until just now, so I haven't looked into it.

bob

zxcvbob

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2012, 01:26:35 AM »
Funny.  Unions are just fine with me.  When my future wife was in the hospital and we were co-habitating with no family in the immediate area, the doctors wouldn't even tell me what was going on..... A same sex couple would probably experience the same thing.  Hence am comfortable with "unions" for legal reasons and feel it is fair.  This is about as far as I am willing to go with this kind of discussion.  I have religious beliefs and that is just the way it is.  I am not going to vote for "civil unions", but if the majority votes for it, fine with me.  I just want no part of it.  Live and let live.

With the advent of HIPAA, they won't tell you anything even if you are married.  They even get all self-righteous about it.

Quote from: slingshot
Why does it matter if they are sleeping together? A pair of sisters, or a father and daughter, or a mother and son could all be in a legal, committed union. They could use insurance benefits, social security, food stamps, welfare, etc... Why is the sleeping together part the reason for calling something a "marriage"? (Or, union, as you choose to term it.)

I frequently bring that point up.  It pisses everybody off, so I figure I must be onto something.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 01:30:46 AM by zxcvbob »
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erictank

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2012, 05:37:50 AM »
I'ma go make the popcorn.

Everyone good with butter and salt?

Got any kettle corn? That stuff's my favorite... [popcorn]

MillCreek

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2012, 07:04:13 AM »
Just curious, wouldn't a reciprocal medical power of attorney alleviate this particular problem? This is something I haven't really thought of until just now, so I haven't looked into it.

bob

It would.  A properly-written durable power of attorney for healthcare gives the second party the necessary legal authority to make decisions and receive information regarding the medical care of the first party.  If you do have such a document and run into problems, ask to speak to the hospital risk manager and they should take care of it.  Tell them I said hello.

PS: I forgot to mention emphasis on the properly-written part for healthcare.  I have lost track of the number of times someone has given me a document that they downloaded from the Net, and it is not a healthcare power of attorney.  Usually it is a financial power of attorney, which gives you absolutely zilch authority on healthcare matters, or if it is a DPOAH, it only comes into effect if the patient is incompetent, which is usually the case.  If the patient is still competent, they are the ones making the decisions on their healthcare, and you as their spouse or holder of the DPOAH have no legal authority at that time in the patient's healthcare.  The DPOAH that I have written for my wife and I only come into effect if we are incompetent.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 07:26:13 AM by MillCreek »
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MillCreek

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2012, 07:13:35 AM »
With the advent of HIPAA, they won't tell you anything even if you are married.  They even get all self-righteous about it.

Hmm, presuming you are legally-married, this usually only applies if the patient has specifically asked you to not share any information with the spouse or other family members.  In addition, if the care has anything to do with sexual matters, mental health or substance use, we will need to ask the patient first if they want the information shared with the spouse or other family members.  I run into situations all the time where the patient has asked me to not share info with their spouse and I must legally and ethically honor the patient's request.  I don't tell the other person that their spouse has forbidden me from telling them about the care; I just say that Federal and State medical privacy laws do not allow me to share the information.

There is still a lot of confusion about HIPAA in the healthcare community, and the Feds have everyone running scared on this, so a lot of places figure that they cannot get into trouble if they keep their mouths shut.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2012, 08:34:14 AM »
We've both signed releases with our primary healthcare provider. Seems like every time we've had reasson for one of us to talk to them about the other they "can't find" the release even though it's all supposed to be computerized now.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2012, 10:08:32 AM »

Nope. One doesn't argue that government should do something on the basis that it won't harm someone. At least not in any libertarian and/or small government mode of thinking. If you want government to start doing something, you should posit some reason why government NOT doing it WILL harm someone.

I'm not making the argument for or against in this thread.  Mostly because certain minds will likely never be changed.  Only the point that it isn't hurting anyone.

Make me king tomorrow and governments only involvement in marriage would be county records.
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lee n. field

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2012, 10:08:35 PM »
>have a weird religious component to them<

I've been noticing that a LOT with Obama's supporters, actually.

Once dealt with some of the members of the UW Oshkosh Campus Crusade for Christ. Bear in mind, we're talking about a group that was kicked off campus because of the actions of their "leader" (who wasn't a student.

No, typically the campus student groups are overseen by an older guy or couple, doing it as a Christian mission. 

 
Quote
Organization was basically a cult).  I'm reminded of those folks every time I meet an Obama supporter...

Maybe sometime, I'd be interested in hearing about that.

I never had any great desire to be part of any of the campus student groups, back in the day, so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of what they were or are like.  My understanding is that the 3 big ones (Campus Crusade (now rebranded as "Cru" so as not to spook the cursadophobic Islamics), Intervarsity and  Navigators) each had a distinct internal culture.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2012, 12:07:04 AM »
I should really start keeping track of how many times I've posted this...

Remove the term "marriage" (and it's linguistic derivitives) from legal terminology. Replace with "civil union". Want to be "married"? That's where your church comes in, and it is their decision whether or not they'll marry you and your partner.

"Civil union": a legal cohabitation agreement between any two or more consenting adults, granting all the same privledges and responsibilities as are currently granted by the marriage license.

Makes everybody truly equal


A common notion.
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makattak

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2012, 12:14:34 AM »
In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion.

-G K Chesterton
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2012, 12:24:02 AM »
Ok Mak... I'll bite.

"What is the purpose of the government's involvement in the institution of marriage?"

That a good starting point?
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makattak

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2012, 12:30:10 AM »
Ok Mak... I'll bite.

"What is the purpose of the government's involvement in the institution of marriage?"

That a good starting point?

Sure. Why did the governemnt get involved in the first place and why was it only for a union of a man and a woman? Why did the government not recognize a pair of spinsters or a formalize a marraige as merely a business arrangement?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2012, 01:03:29 AM »
I asked the question, expecting someone else to answer it... ;)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2012, 01:13:30 AM »
I asked the question, expecting someone else to answer it... ;)

I believe that was Mr. Chesterton's point.
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Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2012, 01:23:04 AM »
He also spoke of destroying something.

I don't recall anyone saying marriage should be abolished, but expanded. That's something different.

For the sake of discussion, I asked the question. Care to answer it?
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Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

CAnnoneer

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2012, 01:35:14 PM »
The bottom line is gay marriage will be legalized in most states in the next 10 years. That is why it makes no strategic sense for Reps to throw away voters and elections by opposing it. I am far more concerned what the country will look like because of everything else that is going on, rather than if a few gays will be legally recognized as equals to heterosexuals in terms of marriage.

IMO, what this is really about is gays want to feel equal and normal. Except they can be equal but cannot be normal. They think they become normal if they are equal. So, let's make them equal and allow them the illusion of normalcy. What is the problem with that? I think many opponents of gay marriage equate equality with normalcy, and as they (rightfully) deny normalcy, they think they must deny equality as well. Equal before the law does not make gays normal.

The counterargument is that semantics matters. There is power associated with words, so opponents do not want to give the power associated with "marriage" to gays. What is that power in reality? How does this affect us practically?

Frankly, the religious interpretation of marriage seems to do more harm than good in today's world. For example, before I got married I dated enough Catholic divorcees to know they are really messed up because of the divorce. They think they are lessened because of it, that somehow their purity and worth are diminished, because "marriage is made in heaven" and they failed at it. Now that is real-world consequences. If we instead realize that marriage is a form of social contract, and thus can be dissolved under the right circumstances, things would be better for everybody. Incidentally, it would also improve the marriage, because each spouse cherished a higher appreciation for the other, exactly because it is possible to leave. Conversely, if there is no such thing as exit, or the exit is particularly cumbersome, many people are then stuck in terrible relationships that make both spouses profoundly unhappy. So, let's cut the crap and de-sanctify marriage; it will make it better, not worse.

Doggy Daddy

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2012, 01:59:57 PM »
He also spoke of destroying something.

I don't recall anyone saying marriage should be abolished, but expanded. That's something different.

For the sake of discussion, I asked the question. Care to answer it?

On a tangent; Is marriage the gate or the space the gate spans?  Abolishing one is would serve much the same function as expanding the other.  Gotta look at the whole system.


(Note to Strings: I'm probably mostly agreeing with your views on the topic.  I'm not quoting you as a means of disagreement or attack.)
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MillCreek

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2012, 10:55:43 PM »
Wow, so the Supreme Court has agreed to hear two cases on gay marriage: a Proposition 8 case out of California, and a provision of DOMA: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/12/07/166751369/supreme-court-to-review-gay-marriage-laws?ft=1&f=1001

This should be interesting.
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slingshot

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2012, 11:42:57 PM »
Frankly, the religious interpretation of marriage seems to do more harm than good in today's world. For example, before I got married I dated enough Catholic divorcees to know they are really messed up because of the divorce. They think they are lessened because of it, that somehow their purity and worth are diminished, because "marriage is made in heaven" and they failed at it. Now that is real-world consequences. If we instead realize that marriage is a form of social contract, and thus can be dissolved under the right circumstances, things would be better for everybody. Incidentally, it would also improve the marriage, because each spouse cherished a higher appreciation for the other, exactly because it is possible to leave. Conversely, if there is no such thing as exit, or the exit is particularly cumbersome, many people are then stuck in terrible relationships that make both spouses profoundly unhappy. So, let's cut the crap and de-sanctify marriage; it will make it better, not worse.

Marriage has always been a social contract.  It was formalized legally to facilitate order in terms of the legatimacy of children, inheritance, property ownership, and so forth.  Catholics have always separated marriage (the Sacrament of Matrimony) and the social contract (marriage license) and the basic marriage where papers are signed by both parties.  Christians, especially Catholics, santified marriage as a contract between two people (man and woman for the purpose of pro-creation) and God (not the state).  Diifferent religious faiths had different rules on dissolving the contract.  The Catholic Religion was probably the toughest at least to my knowledge.  A divorce or breaking of the marriage contract had religious consequences... essentially dissolving the contract without the blessing of the Church resulted in being denied any of the "benefits" of the religions.  That may be a bit outdated, but it remains today.

Changing the social contract to be inclusive of same sex people changes the fundamental religious contract because marriage was for pro-creation from a religous perspective and a legal contract for the other aspects of marriage.

You may dissagree with the fundimental religious aspects, but they exist.  Allowing for a civil union but not marriage would skirt the religous aspect and legitamize the legal aspects.  Some would say this is outdated.  Others feel that this change would fundamentally alter the purpose of a marriage and hence wrong.

It is nothing to me to have civil unions or homosexual marriages.  I am no Bible toter, but I believe that the Bible is rooted in a belief that marriage is between a man and woman who could pro-create.  There are passages in the Bible which I can't quote but I have a faint memory of them from the Old Testament.

From a religous perspective, the Roman Empire broke up because it became fundamentally corrupt in terms of its social fabric.  The USA could do the same and it is headed that way.  The government ties people of common goals together and when the common goals or fabric is broken up, the government fails.  This is probably a bit simplistic since communistic governments remain today and governments controlled by Islamists remain strong (because the religion forces a very strict family structure with penalties as I understand it).  Religious persecution goes back a long time and it continues today.  The big difference with America is that it was founded on Christian principles which are more or less generally accepted principles by other faiths.  But the difference is that fundamental rights were God given and not granted by the government.  The Second Amendment is one of those which many here hold dearly.

Christianity is essentially a communistic and totalitarian system with redistribution of wealth as a basis for the good of everyone.  But we know that it is not an effective system from a populace perspective due to human greed.  Capitalism and individualism is not necessarily generic with a successful government, but allows for individuals to better themselves when they are not born on the "right side of the tracks" or within a certain family.

How much changing the marriage contract would affect the government is debatable.  But a country grows by population increase and same sex marriage is not compatable with that.  As long as the number of homosexual is small relatively speaking, it probably has no significant effect on the US social fabric in itself.

But the country is faced with the breakup of the family unit which forms the basis of most Western civilization.

It is very complicated and one can not predict what will happen in the long term.  But if the country makes the social contract as not significant, then you become more a vassel of the state rather than a member of a family.

Sorry for wandering a bit, but I will have to sort this out.  
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:51:33 PM by slingshot »
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Fly320s

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2012, 11:46:39 PM »
Someone call Orville because I need a boat load of popcorn.



Orville used planes, not boats.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2012, 11:47:47 PM »
Quote

Christianity is essentially a communistic and totalitarian system with redistribution of wealth as a basis for the good of everyone.


In my years in and around Christianity, I can't say I've ever seen anything that would support that as a general statement.
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slingshot

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2012, 11:53:12 PM »
In terms of Catholism, it is essentially a communistic system with totalitarian rule by the Pope.  Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.  Many religions "suggest" a tithe.  Demand is perhaps a more proper term.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:56:58 PM by slingshot »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2012, 12:10:11 AM »
Frankly, the religious interpretation of marriage seems to do more harm than good in today's world. For example, before I got married I dated enough Catholic divorcees to know they are really messed up because of the divorce. They think they are lessened because of it, that somehow their purity and worth are diminished, because "marriage is made in heaven" and they failed at it. Now that is real-world consequences. If we instead realize that marriage is a form of social contract, and thus can be dissolved under the right circumstances, things would be better for everybody. Incidentally, it would also improve the marriage, because each spouse cherished a higher appreciation for the other, exactly because it is possible to leave. Conversely, if there is no such thing as exit, or the exit is particularly cumbersome, many people are then stuck in terrible relationships that make both spouses profoundly unhappy. So, let's cut the crap and de-sanctify marriage; it will make it better, not worse.


Our society has been desanctifying marriage for decades. It has made things worse, not better.

Like most social-liberal viewpoints, yours is based on outdated thinking.
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Strings

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Re: Changing attitudes towards gay marriage
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2012, 12:23:42 AM »
>It is very complicated and one can not predict what will happen in the long term.  But if the country makes the social contract as not significant, then you become more a vassel of the state rather than a member of a family.<

But can you explain how extending the same legal protections to same sex couples "makes the social contract not significant"? You kinda lose me there.

What I keep hearing, from anyone who opposes any form of "gay marriage", is that it "destroys the institution of marriage". Something tells me the current attitude towards marriage is already doing exactly that
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