Author Topic: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB  (Read 77834 times)

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2012, 11:03:29 PM »
Isn't that how the Sten is made?

Pretty much, and that's why it's a ridiculous notion. Some tubes, a small heavy tube, a block of metal, some springs, and a hook catch mechanism. You now have the general materials needed to make an open bolt blow back submachine gun. Hell, the underground gun makers during the polish resistance in WW2 didn't even bother rifling the barrels. They cut the chamber and that was it. The 9mm Luger round still provided minute-of-nazi accuracy out to around 50-100 meters, and so was suitable for urban street fighting.


Anyways, here's the one I found. Looks like an improvised design used by the Free Ireland types. Book I was reading said they found one of these in a British penitentiary, and was assembled from a chair leg, coil springs taken from his sleeping mattress and some other odds and ends smuggled out of the machine shop.






Many, many thanks to this website for documenting this aspect of the invention known as a gun. For a loooot more improvised WTF moments, please clicky the link.

http://improguns.blogspot.com/

De Selby

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2012, 11:08:17 PM »
Weapons?  Name it.

Ninja stars, switch blades, brass knuckles, and similar have all been banned outright, possession included.

Quote
Okay, so the only "confiscation" we have so far is slaves and gold.  And the logic for both was fundamentally different than this one.

My point remains, it is for the most part, and only by really expanding the argument, untreaded ground.

As for my shelf life argument, I wasn't trying to apply it to the common law sense of the current question.

It's certainly not as well established as eminent domain cases, but the existence of exceptions to the rule and government's power to confiscate without payment is well established.

 The question is whether any law crafted by the congress will meet the legal requirements for those exceptions.  Not whether they exist.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2012, 11:09:01 PM »
There are plenty of spineless RINOs who will only be too happy to compromise your rights away. And plenty of FUDDs who will help gun owners in complying with the new law...
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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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slingshot

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2012, 11:19:42 PM »
Quote
And plenty of FUDDs who will help gun owners in complying with the new law...

Not exactly sure what you are suggesting here?
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Boomhauer

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2012, 11:34:58 PM »
Not exactly sure what you are suggesting here?

Informing for a nice reward...Collaborating with the anti's and such...after all they got to keep their hunting rifles and shotguns
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Strings

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2012, 11:58:36 PM »
>Ninja stars, switch blades, brass knuckles, and similar have all been banned outright, possession included.<

My understanding (at least as far as Wisconsin law goes) is that none of the above items was declared illegal, then confiscated from peoples' homes.

"Owning" them are fine, so long as they never leave the house
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AJ Dual

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2012, 12:16:21 AM »
I kind of doubt that the AWB will pass. It has several different problems, aside from the ones that birdman is pointing out.

1) It has to get through Congress first. Most likely it will be DOA in the House. The NRA's strategy of courting pro-gunners on both sides of the aisle will likely pay off there.

2) Even if it does pass, it has to get through the Supreme Court. Heller established the "in common use" test, and you'd have to have a particularly obtuse reading of "in common use" for EBRs not to be covered. They're simply way too damn popular.

The biggest danger, I think, is going to be whatever Obama tries to pull off using EO's and rule changes. Those will not be as easily thwarted, and I suspect that the AWB proposal is simply being used to draw fire while Obama quietly implements the other stuff behind Congress' back.

This is where I'm at, and what I'm expecting.  Too many reps and senators will be getting overwhelming pro-RKBA feedback from their individual states that will drown out any national/media pressure, and won't vote for anything worse than window dressing, or some "mental health" tightening of NICS. (Other vets posting about PTSD worries and diagnoses, their concerns are legit.)

Although I was dead wrong about the last POTUS election too, not believing any way it could be anything other than Reagan/Carter II. That is nagging at me.

Otherwise, if it all goes sideways on us, all I can say is "I will not comply". and leave it at that. Anything else, can't be said in a public forum.
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De Selby

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2012, 12:31:31 AM »
>Ninja stars, switch blades, brass knuckles, and similar have all been banned outright, possession included.<

My understanding (at least as far as Wisconsin law goes) is that none of the above items was declared illegal, then confiscated from peoples' homes.

"Owning" them are fine, so long as they never leave the house

That might be true in WI, however it's not true in some other jurisdictions.  I'm thinking of NY and CA in particular.

There's significant variation on weapons laws between the states.   As far as I know, no state has ever had an outright ban on possession if weapons ruled to be a taking.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2012, 12:31:58 AM »
Can we look to other western countries for possible scenarios?
How did it work in England, Canada and Australia when possession of certain classes of guns was outlawed and surrender of the weapons was ordered?

There are millions of untraceable guns in this country today. One face to face sale breaks the trail. Not to mention the number of guns in circulation from pre-1968 that never had a paper trail though far fewer of them would fall into the "assault weapon" niche.

I am not optimistic the Obama's "meaningful" action is going to be anything as benign as the '94 AWB.
We already have all the usual characters calling for new "meaningful" gun control with the full and active participation of Obama's press core(MSM). We also see anyone that criticized the call for new gun control while the victim's bodies weren't even cold yet being labeled as uncaring monsters.  I can only imagine the labels that will be thrown at any politician that is so evil as to oppose the new "meaningful" gun control laws.

I got a feeling it's gonna get even more interesting in the coming months.
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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2012, 12:35:06 AM »
 I can only imagine the labels that will be thrown at any politician that is so evil as to oppose the new "meaningful" gun control laws.


What labels will they use against the demonstrators that march through town with slung ARs?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2012, 12:39:23 AM »
Well duh, racist bigoted anti woman homophobic religious zealot right wing nut job tea party/tea-bagger child hater...
Yeah pretty much the same ones the left use for anyone that doesn't march in lockstep with their agenda. 
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De Selby

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2012, 12:45:18 AM »

What labels will they use against the demonstrators that march through town with slung ARs?

Enemy combatant?  It might be clearly bs, but who's going to challenge it?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

agricola

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2012, 12:46:07 AM »
Can we look to other western countries for possible scenarios?
How did it work in England, Canada and Australia when possession of certain classes of guns was outlawed and surrender of the weapons was ordered?

There are millions of untraceable guns in this country today. One face to face sale breaks the trail. Not to mention the number of guns in circulation from pre-1968 that never had a paper trail though far fewer of them would fall into the "assault weapon" niche.

I am not optimistic the Obama's "meaningful" action is going to be anything as benign as the '94 AWB.
We already have all the usual characters calling for new "meaningful" gun control with the full and active participation of Obama's press core(MSM). We also see anyone that criticized the call for new gun control while the victim's bodies weren't even cold yet being labeled as uncaring monsters.  I can only imagine the labels that will be thrown at any politician that is so evil as to oppose the new "meaningful" gun control laws.

I got a feeling it's gonna get even more interesting in the coming months.

There were a few threads on the old THR that went in to what happened in the UK in minute statistical detail, but basically there was no discernable statistical effect (positive or negative) from any of the bans (either post Hungerford or post Dunblane), and we appear to have had much the same level of spree killings (ie: one a decade) irrespective of many thousand legally held firearms being taken away.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2012, 12:50:58 AM »
Can we look to other western countries for possible scenarios?
How did it work in England, Canada and Australia when possession of certain classes of guns was outlawed and surrender of the weapons was ordered?

There are millions of untraceable guns in this country today. One face to face sale breaks the trail. Not to mention the number of guns in circulation from pre-1968 that never had a paper trail though far fewer of them would fall into the "assault weapon" niche.

I am not optimistic the Obama's "meaningful" action is going to be anything as benign as the '94 AWB.
We already have all the usual characters calling for new "meaningful" gun control with the full and active participation of Obama's press core(MSM). We also see anyone that criticized the call for new gun control while the victim's bodies weren't even cold yet being labeled as uncaring monsters.  I can only imagine the labels that will be thrown at any politician that is so evil as to oppose the new "meaningful" gun control laws.

I got a feeling it's gonna get even more interesting in the coming months.

The one bright spot is that we've been primed, by the original '94 AWB, both Obama elections, and the Internet and alternative media is now established and mature. And as mentioned, we have Heller.

I'm not saying it will, or won't be enough, but we are in a much better position to resist and push back than we were in '94. And the number of "invested" pro-gun people is higher.
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RocketMan

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2012, 03:59:28 AM »
I kind of doubt that the AWB will pass. It has several different problems, aside from the ones that birdman is pointing out.

1) It has to get through Congress first. Most likely it will be DOA in the House. The NRA's strategy of courting pro-gunners on both sides of the aisle will likely pay off there.

2) Even if it does pass, it has to get through the Supreme Court. Heller established the "in common use" test, and you'd have to have a particularly obtuse reading of "in common use" for EBRs not to be covered. They're simply way too damn popular.

The biggest danger, I think, is going to be whatever Obama tries to pull off using EO's and rule changes. Those will not be as easily thwarted, and I suspect that the AWB proposal is simply being used to draw fire while Obama quietly implements the other stuff behind Congress' back.

I like your sentiments, Regolith, but I am nowhere near as sanguine as you about an AWB's chance of passage in the House.  Especially after this last election cycle.  I simply do not trust the GOP to not cave on the issue.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2012, 06:52:27 AM »
>Ninja stars, switch blades, brass knuckles, and similar have all been banned outright, possession included.<

My understanding (at least as far as Wisconsin law goes) is that none of the above items was declared illegal, then confiscated from peoples' homes.

"Owning" them are fine, so long as they never leave the house

I can't speak to ninja stars these days, but when I was in Jr High, they were easy enough to get in Tennessee.  As for "switch blades", in VA they are illegal to carry, but quite legal to own (can't easily buy them in state though).  I've owned two.  When my home was burglarized in 2010, the thieves took one from my house.  I told the cops (it was listed on my inventory of missing items) and the insurance company.  Nobody said a thing and insurance covered the loss.

One can buy automatic knives (switchblades) at knife shops in Alabama.  I bought one there myself a couple years ago.  They're controlled, but not universally illegal.

Chris

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2012, 07:11:22 AM »
I can't speak to ninja stars these days, but when I was in Jr High, they were easy enough to get in Tennessee.  As for "switch blades", in VA they are illegal to carry, but quite legal to own (can't easily buy them in state though).  I've owned two.  When my home was burglarized in 2010, the thieves took one from my house.  I told the cops (it was listed on my inventory of missing items) and the insurance company.  Nobody said a thing and insurance covered the loss.

One can buy automatic knives (switchblades) at knife shops in Alabama.  I bought one there myself a couple years ago.  They're controlled, but not universally illegal.

Chris

Oh, the joys of free state living....I grew up with 14 day waits and handgun registration.  Ninja stars strictly forbidden.
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birdman

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2012, 07:43:17 AM »
That might be true in WI, however it's not true in some other jurisdictions.  I'm thinking of NY and CA in particular.

There's significant variation on weapons laws between the states.   As far as I know, no state has ever had an outright ban on possession if weapons ruled to be a taking.

PRECISELY.
The problem is, these are STATE actions, the takings clause, and the ex post facto prohibition are constitutional (federal) issues, and as others have pointed out, possession of those objects (and not use) was not banned (switchblades, etc).  In the NY case, if you have those on your person in public, that is construed as "use", however, I don't believe possession was ruled illegal at home.  (See the switchblade example).  In the case of carrying those in public, confiscation isn't taking, as they are part of a crime.

My point remains, while states have banned things, there has not been a non-grandfathered confiscation without use from private homes of objects without renumeration, and I still can't think of one even with renumeration.  Also, federal law is different, while there is constitutional supremacy w.r.t. Takings and ex post facto, different states have interpreted how to get around those differently, (kelo v new London) and they nearly always have been challenged. 

So the point remains, can anyone think of a non-grandfathered, possession in ones home without use, banning with confiscation (with or without renumeration) of an object FEDERAL example (specifically, where the mere possession of the object was the crime rather than tied to a crime of use or manufacture).  POST reconstruction.

Other than drugs, I can't think of anything, and even in those cases, constructional possession isn't applied (drug precursors for example).

At this point, I'm still just trying to make the point that it is legally a BIG reach, without much if any precedent.

England and a few other places were able to do it as RKBA wasn't enshrined, and getting over the "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" (emphasis mine) is a tough hump, especially given recent precedent.

I'm sure such a law, IF PASSED, would be challenged innumerable times, under a variety of defenses (takings, pure 2A, ex post facto, etc) not to mention there are plenty of states where RKBA is enshrined as an individual right in their state constitutions, leading to federal supremacy arguments (provided 2AM wasn't repealed through amendment, which would also be effectively impossible given the highly diverse nature of the amendment process which gives a tremendous amount of power to the flyover states.

SteveS

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2012, 09:11:59 AM »
PRECISELY.
The problem is, these are STATE actions, the takings clause, and the ex post facto prohibition are constitutional (federal) issues, and as others have pointed out, possession of those objects (and not use) was not banned (switchblades, etc).  In the NY case, if you have those on your person in public, that is construed as "use", however, I don't believe possession was ruled illegal at home.  (See the switchblade example).  In the case of carrying those in public, confiscation isn't taking, as they are part of a crime.

Ex post facto is prohibited to states.  See clause 1 of Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

If this were a possible route to challenge, it didn't work.  I am sure someone would have tried in those states, though I may be wrong. 

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2012, 09:16:34 AM »
Quote
So the point remains, can anyone think of a non-grandfathered, possession in ones home without use, banning with confiscation (with or without renumeration) of an object FEDERAL example (specifically, where the mere possession of the object was the crime rather than tied to a crime of use or manufacture).  POST reconstruction.

Ignoring your POST reconstruction clause, the only thing that comes to mind is slaves.  

And that's bad enough.  And perfectly applicable.  Heck, if Lincoln can start disregarding the Constitution, then Obama is the perfect person to relegate it to an inapplicable past.

Lincoln shredded the original foundations of the Union... Obama can destroy the remaining tattered shreds of State-Sponsored Liberty.


What labels will they use against the demonstrators that march through town with slung ARs?

These types of protests will happen.  The AR's will be slung with empty mag wells, but there will probably be a few 30's in coat and jeans pockets, as well as loaded pistols on hip.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2012, 09:28:38 AM »
Here's my fear in this situation...
1.  AWB introduced.  I've not seen anything concrete on bill language, other than what appears to be a mag limit (again), and a list of prohibited "assault weapons," the length of which we can only guess at this point.  After much debate, which will include photos of the victims, the RINO's will cave, and a law will be passed.  
2.  The bill will include a grace period before enforcement begins, during which time individuals can turn in the prohibited items without fear of prosecution.  Some will do so, some won't.  Some will seek court action by filing suit, perhaps even seeking a declaritory judgment.
3.  The federal court system is notoriously slow.  As such, a smart lawyer will seek a stay on the enforcement of the AWB pending outcome of the legal action.  You may or my not find a judge willing to take that stand.  The case spins its way through the system towards SCOTUS.
4.  Meanwhile, Obama may get a chance to change the make-up of SCOTUS through new appointments to the bench.  Doubtful that 2A issues even get brought up in the confirmation process, but you can be sure where his nominees would fall on that issue.
5.  AWB gets to SCOTUS, and the new SCOTUS will (a) rewrite Heller to include some "reasonable restriction" language allowing for the AWB, (b) ignore Heller and find teh AWB not in violation of 2A, or (c) overturn Heller altogether.
6.  Depending on how this all plays out, especially is SCOTUS somehow supports 2A, see a movement to call for a Constitutional Amendment to repeal 2A.  Before you start to say this can never happen, look at the results of the last presidential election.  Get enough celebs on TV doing ads to support the repeal, featuring photos of the chidlren, and I fear that you might be able to get it ratified.
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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2012, 09:38:24 AM »

5.  AWB gets to SCOTUS, and the new SCOTUS will (a) rewrite Heller to include some "reasonable restriction" language allowing for the AWB, (b) ignore Heller and find teh AWB not in violation of 2A, or (c) overturn Heller altogether.


I don't even think Heller requires a rewrite to do what you suggest.  Scalia writes in Heller:

"Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose"

Unfortunately, I think a mag limit could fall under a "reasonable restriction," as would a restriction on some guns. 
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birdman

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2012, 09:49:52 AM »
6.  Depending on how this all plays out, especially is SCOTUS somehow supports 2A, see a movement to call for a Constitutional Amendment to repeal 2A.  Before you start to say this can never happen, look at the results of the last presidential election.  Get enough celebs on TV doing ads to support the repeal, featuring photos of the chidlren, and I fear that you might be able to get it ratified.

This is the biggest one that would impede such a thing.  An ammendment requires 3/4 of states (38) to pass, and considering 24 states were won by Romney, and at least 12-13 of those by good margins, a constitutional amendment would be kinda tough.

Take the following list:
Idaho
Montana
Alaska
North Dakota
Arizona
Texas
Arkansas
Tennessee
Kentucky
West Virginia
Wyoming

And two of the remainder
SD, NE, KS, SC, NC, GA, MS, MO, LA, AL, IN, OK, NV

And it doesn't pass.

My worry isn't legislation, its a derivative of the UN ban or an EO.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2012, 09:56:28 AM »
Quote
My worry isn't legislation, its a derivative of the UN ban or an EO.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see some thing in the form of an EO before Christmas. Some dealing with imports maybe.  [tinfoil]
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slingshot

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Re: Senator Feinstein to introduce a new AWB
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2012, 10:03:10 AM »
I also suspect that the mag limit will be considered constitutional and I doubt it would be challenged specifically.  It is a restriction not a denial of rights.  Making many commonly available firearms illegal is another matter and that will be the big test if that in fact happens.

The mental health issue needs to be addressed, but it is a matter of degree in my opinion.  Requiring for example a mental health examination prior to the purchase of a firearm would be restrictive of the right.  Requiring you to provide personal references attesting to your sound character are another.

Requiring effectively all firearm transfers to go through a FFL is almost a given if a new law is passed.

Executive Order (EO) powers are not clearly defined.  But I think it is clear that the President has the authority to restrict specific imports.

Strengthening Federal firearm laws without legislative action is debatable.  But "smaller" revisions to Form 4473 and BATFE authority are likely.

The UN Small Arms Treaty is another concern but with Sandy Hook, ratification becomes a possibility at this point.


« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 10:07:44 AM by slingshot »
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