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Author Topic: Backlash in NY & Penalties?  (Read 33081 times)

De Selby

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2013, 07:07:10 PM »

Are those fingerprints on her forehead?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Blakenzy

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2013, 07:19:12 PM »

I know for a fact that I know nothing for a fact.  :P

Natural Rights are those abilities that are necessary for individual humans to live and thrive, just as for the meta-human construct as well (humanity). I suppose the supreme Right of individual Humans and Humanity is that to exist. We have the right to exist, simply because we do exist, naturally.. That Right compounds and gives existence to other rights which are underlying pillars that are essential to sustain that prime right. There is no scientifically significant difference between human and human. Human is Human. Logic dictates that any right necessary for the continued existence of one must be necessary for all.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2013, 07:23:18 PM »


I exist.

I don't need your approval, acknowledgement, or any other external validation.

The right of survival and, by derivation, the right to self defense, is mine, requiring only that I claim it.

That right can be abridged by another, though not without my counter-assertion that I must continue to survive, and my overt and possibly violent efforts to preserve my own life.

This principle applies to any sentient being as an intrinsic attribute, and history is replete with examples of conflict resulting from attempts to deny the right to life, countered by the insistence on living.

The principle of survival, and the drive of all life to persist in the face of efforts to destroy it, may be codified simply as "the right to life."

It is the impulse, the expectation -- and requirement -- of sentient life that it shall continue to live, even in the face of direct threat to that continuation.

It is not necessary that anyone agree that this principle exists, but to act in ignorance or denial of it predictably and commonly comes to a bad end.

All other requisites for viable sentient life derive from this single mandate: to survive.

The principle of personal and individual survival underpins all the ancillary principles that augment survival.

Communication, personal security, personal shelter, and so on are all derived from this.  Happiness is found in the effective pursuit of these things.

It is an act of sanity to acknowledge and enshrine these most basic requirements of survival, and a culture or governing construct which consistently ignores or nullifies them will eventually come a cropper.  Sentient life will eventually assert its rights of existence, survival, and viability, and whatever stands in opposition will eventually fail.

Efforts to "manage" or govern others do not create such principles or derivations, the principles pre-exist such efforts to control the lives of others.


More simply:  life wants to live, and there will be hell to pay for anyone who would act to deny that.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Tallpine

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2013, 07:24:41 PM »

Hold a knife to somebody's throat, and/or start carrying off their stuff, and I'm guessing that you will hear a near universal "truth" about what their rights are  :P
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

De Selby

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2013, 07:28:58 PM »

The main thing here for me is, irrespective of the debate about truth, if enough other people don't agree with us that there's a right to keep and bear arms, we will not be able to exercise the right.  

Working hard through the political process is exactly how the restrictions of the 70s and 80s were rolled back.  That's the answer today as well, and if it doesn't work right away, instead of panicking and talking about armed sit-ins, we should be doing things that actually promote our political agenda.

Hysteria and talk of resistance doesn't help us in the long run,good as it feels to some.  
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Blakenzy

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2013, 07:43:02 PM »

The main thing here for me is, irrespective of the debate about truth, if enough other people don't agree with us that there's a right to keep and bear arms, we will not be able to exercise the right.   

You always can exercise the RKBA. It's just that you may have to contend with government violence in doing so.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

Fitz

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2013, 07:50:29 PM »

Are those fingerprints on her forehead?

Soot

She's dirty

It's from van helsing, in which her hair was amazing


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Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2013, 08:03:33 PM »

What truth?  Can you prove that natural rights exist?  Can you preform an experiment under reasonably controlled conditions and say, "Yup, just what we expected, there's the natural rights!"

Of course not.  Natural rights are a human invention.  It's an perspective, one that people created.  It only has power insomuch as people choose to believe in it.

Even in things that are "well proven" by experiment, there exists varying degrees of uncertainty.  To quote Feynman;  "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything."


In this nation's founding document, the founders declared equality and human rights to be "self-evident." Which is to say, they are true. If you don't agree with this, shouldn't you find someplace else to live?  ???
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De Selby

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2013, 08:11:03 PM »

Soot

She's dirty

It's from van helsing, in which her hair was amazing


I'll be in my bunk

So I did some googling....yeah, there's some philosophical goodness there.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2013, 08:12:25 PM »


In this nation's founding document, the founders declared equality and human rights to be "self-evident." Which is to say, they are true. If you don't agree with this, shouldn't you find someplace else to live?  ???

And that's the point - what happens when the body politic decides it has a different view?  Does that mean you get to find a new place to live?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2013, 08:20:59 PM »


Just in case anyone has forgotten, the Founders didn't just pull the language of the founding docs out of their butt after a night of swilling ale.

It's easy to forget that these guys were exceedingly well read, and well versed in the classical philosophers, as well as the contemporary thinkers of the day.

When you gaze back over some 5,000 years of recorded history, study the unwinding of time's ball of string, and contemplate the animating principles of Mankind, and then remark that certain things are "self-evident," it's just possible you may be onto something, despite the later objections of sophists who have gone to no such effort.

I won't even pretend to be as well versed in life's philosophies as the Framers were.

And yet, my studies, as scant and shallow as they are, seem to confirm their conclusions.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2013, 08:21:09 PM »

And that's the point - what happens when the body politic decides it has a different view?  Does that mean you get to find a new place to live?


Not according to MLK.
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De Selby

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2013, 08:28:30 PM »


Not according to MLK.

So what do you make of the MLK position on this?  If you like it, why the challenge to Nick about agreeing with your view or leaving?

Arfin, I don't think the founders were short on this point - I think modern views about the founders greatly distort their views.   Whatever they were, they were not modern free market libertarians (and why should us libertarians be bothered by that?)
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Hutch

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2013, 08:59:45 PM »

There IS such a thing as absolute truth.

Observe



Kate Beckinsale is beautiful.

If you disagree, you probably are just a figment of my imagination
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2013, 10:02:26 PM »

So what do you make of the MLK position on this?  If you like it, why the challenge to Nick about agreeing with your view or leaving?

MLK's position was that the founding principles expressed in the Declaration and the Constitution must be fulfilled. That is the position of those who support the 2nd amendment.

I did not "challenge" Nick about agreeing with my view. You would have to be very dull to actually believe that. I simply spoke of a view which is central to American ideas about society, without any reference to my own views.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2013, 10:17:10 PM »

This is hystarical.

You guys are all chasing your tails over estoric philosophical principles that can be removed simply by saying "regardless of the nature of exsistance, imperical truth and the various belives of induvidials, how do we maintain a functional society in which those same various beliefs can be accomidated?"

I, personally, would answer that the best course would be the one laid out by our founders which they came to by study of past societies, the nature of man and the accumulated wisdom of classical thinking.

But you guys have fun getting bent out of shape over Nick's acknowledgement that there is no garenteed absolute truth about anything.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2013, 12:20:18 AM »

"David Hume could out consume Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel..."
"It's good, though..."

De Selby

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2013, 12:34:21 AM »

"David Hume could out consume Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel..."

Do you have any rhymes for Pierce and pragmaticism, the word so ugly no one would appropriate its use?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

brimic

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2013, 08:08:46 AM »

Here's a basic truth-
The American left's plan to populate our country with a permanent majority voting block of dependents is moving inexorably to fruition. While others may except fascist ideas like 'democracy', 'majority rule', disarmament, and slavery, there are plenty of us here with their heads screwed on straight that do not.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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Blakenzy

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2013, 08:19:11 AM »

Could you elaborate on what the "left" is? I see where you are going but there's more to it than "the left".
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 09:12:17 AM by Blakenzy »
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

Ron

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2013, 09:05:16 AM »

Do you have any rhymes for Pierce and pragmaticism, the word so ugly no one would appropriate its use?

The pragmatic approach has led to us synthesizing away the principles our constitution was founded upon.
The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe.

Who can escape their own cognitive biases?

SADShooter

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2013, 09:16:54 AM »

America's decline distilled in two parts:

"We hold these truths to be self evident..."

"What difference, at this point, does it make?"
"Ah, is there any wine so sweet and intoxicating as the tears of a hippie?"-Tamara, View From the Porch

zxcvbob

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2013, 09:31:56 AM »

"It's good, though..."

Ron

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2013, 10:24:33 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwOCmJevigw

Ha! I ended up watching a bunch of them.Those are awesome! Made me smile and even laugh out loud a couple times.
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Who can escape their own cognitive biases?

AJ Dual

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Re: Backlash in NY & Penalties?
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2013, 02:13:26 PM »

Hilarious irony - to prove that natural rights exist apart from people's opinions, the best we get is an appeal to consensus - "but Nick, don't you agree it's crazy to think any other way!"

Surely if they're so fundamental we don't need to rely on other people agreeing with our assumptions about truth to prove them.

And that's the problem with all the 'state of nature' malarkey that's been the source of this - unless you presume that all the other folks in your state of nature already agree with you, the fantasy construct solved no moral problem.

Hilarity number two:  folks complaining about how might-makes right is an unfair infringement on their rights, while talking about showing up with guns to prevent said infringement.

Really folks, I'm starting to question whether the right is losing the political battle due to Orwellian implosion more than the "FSA" (you know, all those people who can't possibly deny your picture of natural rights!).

You're missing the point.

If you want what you feel to be your natural rights, you have to treat them as absolutes and as having reality. Otherwise you start losing your ability to exercise those rights.

I promise not to duck.
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