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Author Topic: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?  (Read 16914 times)

AJ Dual

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 12:13:40 AM »

So...

Were we to all agree on a uniform before things get ugly in the USA, that might be a good idea?  =D
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red headed stranger

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 01:56:00 AM »

So...

Were we to all agree on a uniform before things get ugly in the USA, that might be a good idea?  =D

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HankB

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 06:17:20 AM »

Sorry, but no one at the time believed that shooting Castro or Yamamoto would've been legal if either escaped to Paris and hidden their identities, to avoid punishment by war crimes tribunals.  Those are examples of leadership strikes confined by territorial and conflict limits.  

This is a very, very different legal theory.
Would there have been any outcry if a bomb were dropped on the station Tokyo Rose was broadcasting from?
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De Selby

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 06:27:03 AM »

Would there have been any outcry if a bomb were dropped on the station Tokyo Rose was broadcasting from?

No, for the same reason.

What if a bomb were dropped on a house in London suspected of being the location of someone who used to be Tokyo rose?  And if the only proof the government offered was 'we believe that was the person. We aren't saying why."?
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 07:58:52 AM »

I'm rapidly changing my mind on this issue, and starting to agree with deselby

Especially considering the recent rhetoric about "right Wong terror groups" and "disgruntled gun owners" being used as the enemy in military exercises

It's very troubling


Also, where's the outrage from the left? They were up in arms about water boarding, calling for impeachment and *expletive deleted*, but they're fine with assassination?

Pretty sure I'd rather be water boarded than dead
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 09:22:15 AM »

Can someone describe how the SCOTUS could be asked to step in and affirm that this practice is not permitted?  The Justice department goons who came up with this poop should be fired, stripped of their pensions, and locked up.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 11:47:25 AM »

Can someone describe how the SCOTUS could be asked to step in and affirm that this practice is not permitted?  The Justice department goons who came up with this poop should be fired, stripped of their pensions, and locked up.

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but I suspect that there would first need to be a ruling that the FedGov and DoD does not have sovereign immunity in such cases.

Following that, civil suits can be filed for wrongful death and violation of civil rights. [I am using the Kent State student killings/conflict as a rough guide where such suits were filed by the parents and ACLU.] In this case, these are Tort civil cases rather than criminal prosecution. As for a criminal prosecution, I think only the Executive branch or Congress itself can force such action against the Office of the President and DoD.

At the highest level, I don't think the SC can't impeach the president or cabinet members in order to force criminal prosecution of subordinates, only Congress can do this. Neither Rs nor Ds are interested in anything of the sort.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 01:13:39 PM »

Pretty sure I'd rather be water boarded than dead

Plus, it is pretty hard to blow up the wrong person or not-so/innocent bystanders with waterboarding.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2013, 03:12:51 PM »

Quote
Plus, it is pretty hard to blow up the wrong person or not-so/innocent bystanders with waterboarding.

Plus, there are no inconvenient witnesses to later testify at a war crime tribunal if they blown to bits.
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De Selby

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2013, 04:55:36 PM »

Also, where's the outrage from the left? They were up in arms about water boarding, calling for impeachment and *expletive deleted*, but they're fine with assassination?

Pretty sure I'd rather be water boarded than dead

This - Obama's policy on enemy combatants is actually far more radical than bush's, yet there's not a peep from his supporters about it.  I'm surprised the white paper even made news.

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Balog

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2013, 07:38:44 PM »

So this is an aspect of Bush and Obama's war policies that don't get me upset.

If a citizen is on foreign soil and is in an enemy war camp (not reasonably able to be captured, as the legal docs put it); then attacking and killing said person in the course of war operations is expected. If they are making war on the US from a foreign location, then it is nonsensical to try and send in the FBI to foreign soil for a raid.

Maybe the current legal situation lacks checks and balances / oversight; but that is an entirely different argument. It seems the current argument is calling the drone assassinations completely illegitimate on the face.

"Not reasonably able to be captured" + "Officer safety" = "Dude's in a trailer in Montana with some guns, so we'd be in danger if we try to arrest him. Just drone his ass." Nothing in that paper explicitly forbids actions on American soil.

And yeah, killing an American citizen solely because some high ranking fed.gov official is pretty sure he's affilliated in some way with a group that's affilliated in some way with Al Queda is absolutely wrong on its face.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2013, 08:08:23 PM »

Yeah, I want a guy like this to have the power to point his finger at me and have me blown up, legally, if he so sees it fit. No evidence, no oversight, no restraints, NO ACCOUNTABILITY... he just has to get it in his head that I am THINKING about "attacking the US" sometime in the future, and that capture would be less convenient than a hellfire missile.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2013, 10:02:05 PM »

Reading the paper, they took all of the imminence out of imminent threat.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2013, 11:58:20 PM »

They haven't thought this thru to its logical conclusion.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2013, 02:32:56 AM »

Given the recent spate of white papers on using troops against American citizens(specifically conservative gun owners), practices against "enemy combatants" consisting of Americans etc...

I'd say maybe they have.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 04:38:27 AM »

There have been a few "natural gas" explosions in the recent past that had some sketchy details.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2013, 11:54:49 AM »

There have been a few "natural gas" explosions in the recent past that had some sketchy details.
Hmmmm.... [tinfoil]

Makes one wonder how the Branch Davidian thing would have turned out had drones been available.....
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2013, 01:11:46 PM »

Makes one wonder how the Branch Davidian thing would have turned out had drones been available.....

If history is any guide, there will be another Branch Davidian-like event at some point.  We will see how things go when it happens.  And we will probably not like it.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2013, 06:02:01 PM »

Makes one wonder how the Branch Davidian thing would have turned out had drones been available.....

Just as many dead kids.
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Blakenzy

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2013, 06:53:55 PM »

Yep. The presence of kids doesn't make a drone strike a No-Go. Ask the Pakistanis.
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De Selby

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2013, 07:04:18 PM »

Just as many dead kids.

Obama literally blows up little kids from the sky, and sells guns to Mexican drug gangs, and somehow he's the compassionate alternative to republicans.

Nutty as he is, Ron Paul is the only person with a shred of sanity that stood for election.
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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2013, 07:07:02 PM »

Quote
When can the US Government assasinate Americans?

Anytime they want, apparently  :mad:

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2013, 08:26:54 PM »

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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2013, 10:10:25 PM »

Obama literally blows up little kids from the sky, and sells guns to Mexican drug gangs, and somehow he's the compassionate alternative to republicans.

Nutty as he is, Ron Paul is the only person with a shred of sanity that stood for election.

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I always thought McCain was the farthest extreme of the War Party in US politics, but I doubt he would have gone as far as BHO has.  If he had, the MSM and "Anti-War*" protesters would have attenuated his behavior a bit. 




* 99.9% of the Bush-Era "Anti-War Protesters" were mere partisan hacks.  Where are they all now that BHO has re-classified every collateral non-targeted male killed by a drone strike as a hostile?  And then they claim a dramatic reduction of innocent folks killed by drone strikes.  Sounds an awful lot like the classic example of chutzpa: A double parricide demanding mercy from the court due to his orphaned state.


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Re: When can the US Government assasinate Americans?
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2013, 10:37:10 PM »

Quote
This - Obama's policy on enemy combatants is actually far more radical than bush's, yet there's not a peep from his supporters about it.  I'm surprised the white paper even made news.

I was stunned to read a column by Eugene Robinson in which he condemned Obama for killing American citizens with drones, without judge or trial. He didn't seem concerned about collateral damage (kids, etc).
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