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Author Topic: Here's a good 1st amendment question.  (Read 4100 times)

280plus

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Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« on: March 10, 2013, 10:56:57 AM »

If the state of CT refuses to let me enter the Legislative Office Building to assemble peaceably and speak because I have my weapon on my person aren't they violating my 1st amendment rights? technically they are prohibiting me from speaking. What do all the legal eagles around here say? Next question, How do I make a case out of it? Have them arrest me?
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Fitz

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 11:22:13 AM »

In a government that set up "free speech zones" prior to debates and conventions, I don't think you'll have much luck with that one.
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HankB

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 11:26:54 AM »

While you have a right to speak, nobody has to listen or provide you with a forum in which to do so.

If you're going to argue that the Legislative Office Building is a public place where you have a right to speak and are contemplating arrest to make a case out of this, perhaps you should consult with a good local civil rights attorney in CT first - legal advice you get here is worth what you pay for it.
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lupinus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 12:23:07 PM »

good luck with that
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TommyGunn

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2013, 12:27:59 PM »

If the state of CT refuses to let me enter the Legislative Office Building to assemble peaceably and speak because I have my weapon on my person aren't they violating my 1st amendment rights? technically they are prohibiting me from speaking. What do all the legal eagles around here say? Next question, How do I make a case out of it? Have them arrest me?


You can't just leave the weapon home for that? ;/
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280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 02:58:45 PM »

You can't just leave the weapon home for that? ;/
I shouldn't have to. I don't necessarily care to head down into Hartford unarmed.

And that's my argument exactly. The LOB is a public place where public meetings are held and citizens go to speak. I am effectively barred from being able to participate. And BTW, prior to all the fans hitting the you know what, there were no metal detectors anywhere in this building. I have spoken there before. Made CCTV and everything. Just me chewing out the utilities. Got my goshdarned $1000 out of their little posteriors too.  ;)

And yea, I'd be checking it out further before I did anything rash. lol. I'm just asking as a point of discussion. Is that the only way to establish a case or can I just file something somewhere?

I was also hoping a good civil rights lawyer might pop up on this but apparently not yet.  [popcorn]
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erictank

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 05:04:25 PM »

I shouldn't have to. I don't necessarily care to head down into Hartford unarmed.

And that's my argument exactly. The LOB is a public place where public meetings are held and citizens go to speak. I am effectively barred from being able to participate. And BTW, prior to all the fans hitting the you know what, there were no metal detectors anywhere in this building. I have spoken there before. Made CCTV and everything. Just me chewing out the utilities. Got my goshdarned $1000 out of their little posteriors too.  ;)

And yea, I'd be checking it out further before I did anything rash. lol. I'm just asking as a point of discussion. Is that the only way to establish a case or can I just file something somewhere?

I was also hoping a good civil rights lawyer might pop up on this but apparently not yet.  [popcorn]

I suspect (YMMV, IANAL, etc...) that you would need to be arrested to bring suit. And I suspect further that the judgment would not be in your favor, since 'they' will almost certainly consider that disarming to enter said building is a "reasonable accomodation" or something of the sort.

TommyGunn

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 06:19:03 PM »

I shouldn't have to. I don't necessarily care to head down into Hartford unarmed.

And that's my argument exactly. The LOB is a public place where public meetings are held and citizens go to speak. I am effectively barred from being able to participate. And BTW, prior to all the fans hitting the you know what, there were no metal detectors anywhere in this building. I have spoken there before. Made CCTV and everything. Just me chewing out the utilities. Got my goshdarned $1000 out of their little posteriors too.  ;)

And yea, I'd be checking it out further before I did anything rash. lol. I'm just asking as a point of discussion. Is that the only way to establish a case or can I just file something somewhere?

I was also hoping a good civil rights lawyer might pop up on this but apparently not yet.  [popcorn]

ANOTHER (useless) suggestion:  Can you bring your gun into Hartford (I lived in Ct from @ 1960-1994 and never realized Hartford was violent) and lock it in your car while at the public meeting?
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2013, 06:21:56 PM »

nah, I'd rather not.

No biggie

And yes, Hartford is a good place to get shot or whatever. Happens all the time.
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280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 06:27:25 PM »

Tell you one thing. After I asked the question of one organizer ALL the organizers started posting the fact that you can't bring a weapon inside.  ;)
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TommyGunn

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 06:29:44 PM »

Look on the bright side: when the revolution begins, somethings will be so much easier.... :rofl: [tinfoil] :rofl: [tinfoil] [popcorn] :rofl: :rofl: >:D :facepalm: [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [tinfoil] :rofl:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Tallpine

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 06:35:02 PM »

nah, I'd rather not.

No biggie

And yes, Hartford is a good place to get shot or whatever. Happens all the time.

There is no good place to get shot  =(
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SteveS

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 07:07:05 PM »

You wouldn't needed to be arrested to sue them.  That being said, it sounds like your argument falls under a "time, place or manner" restriction.  These types or restrictions receive much less scrutiny than a content based restriction and are often upheld.  In my limited understanding of 1st amendment jurisprudence, I don't know that you would win.
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280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 08:29:39 PM »

There is no good place to get shot  =(
True  ;)
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T.O.M.

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 09:45:53 PM »

You wouldn't needed to be arrested to sue them.  That being said, it sounds like your argument falls under a "time, place or manner" restriction.  These types or restrictions receive much less scrutiny than a content based restriction and are often upheld.  In my limited understanding of 1st amendment jurisprudence, I don't know that you would win.


Yeah,, Steve got this right.  Time, place, and manne restrictions are easy wins for .gov.  Only way you beat these is to show they are unreaasonable or applied in an inequitable manner.  If the same restriction applies to everyone, you lose.  The weapon is going to make it harder for you to win.
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Stetson

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2013, 12:23:23 AM »

Everyone?  Or just people that are not LEOs?  I have been encountering LEOs that keep referring to me as a civilian, as if they are something different.

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2013, 01:24:56 AM »

Lobby in your state and pass a law? Much to the chagrin of antis carry is legal in the Virginia legislature thanks to pro-gun lobbyists.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2013, 09:33:29 AM »

Inequitable as in LEO can carry them in and around the building and I can't? Isn't this what we are all talking about? The government having all the guns while they restrict our usage of them best they can.

If I wanted to pursue this on my own, where would I start? Federal courthouse? I'm not going to need a lawyer. I won't be doing anything wrong to achieve my goal. I'm merely going to file suit against the state of CT in regards to what I believe is unconstitutional restriction under at least the 1st and 2nd amendments. Whether I win or lose is irrelevant to me. Not that winning wouldn't be sweet but at the very least I want to make a big fuss with the smallest amount of expenditure possible.
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CNYCacher

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2013, 09:45:37 AM »

While you have a right to speak, nobody has to listen or provide you with a forum in which to do so.

The first amendment is a few more words than "the right to free speech".  How is 280 supposed to petition for a redress of grievances if he is not allowed access to government buildings?
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280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2013, 10:26:37 AM »

How am I to assemble peaceably and offer support to the cause? Sadly, when I mentioned this to the guy apparently in charge on our side he accidentally forgot to reply. No testicular fortitude. IMHO of course
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280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2013, 12:32:44 PM »

Quick!1 I need $350 to file my complaint!  :O

messin' with the .gov aint cheap! lol
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T.O.M.

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2013, 04:18:43 PM »

Here's the deal...time, place, and manner restrictions are permitted to prevent a person from disturbing the peace, or otherwise  interfering with the normal course of business while engaging in what would otherwise be protected 1A speech, or otherwise interfering with the liberties other people enjoy.  So, courts allow .gov to restrict speech in terms of the time, location, and manner, so long as those restrictions have nothing at all to do with the content of the speech.  Yes, 280 can speak in public on an issue, but he cannot simply go into a .gov building with a bullhorn and start shouting, as this would interfere with the rights of others to engage in whatever business they have in that building, just as he cannot go into a residential neighborhood at 3:00 a.m. and blare his speech out of a big speaker system and avoid Disorderly Conduct issues.

As far as the issue with being armed, my advice was not that he wasn't allowed to be armed in teh building...I have no idea what the law is there...it was more along the lines of expressing concern that he may find himself in a more difficult position to defend himself on 1A grounds if he gets into a heated debate while armed.  Someone sees his hand move in the wrong direction, and suddenly it's a threatining move, and he's in big trouble.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 06:08:56 PM by Chris »
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280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2013, 07:01:56 PM »

Crap, now what am I going to do with this bullhorn.  =(

CT  stuck it in under a statute "Interfering with Legislation" subsection c prohibitng firearms, explosives etc etc. If this were not the case I would walk in there concealed with no fear of prosecution and unbeknownst to all other individuals. Therefore no movement would or should be construed as threatening.

Part of my arguement will be that given the 2010 violent crime rate in Hartford (last data available) is some 350% higher than the national average I contend that requiring me to disarm in order to attend a meeting in Hartford is a gross disregard for my personal safety on the part of the CT state legislature and therefore it is an abridgement on my 1st amendment right to assemble peaceably and speak in a government forum. The requirement curtails my right to assemble and speak.
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280plus

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2013, 07:04:11 PM »

I've reached out to the ACLU on this. Waiting for a reply from their attorney.
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geronimotwo

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Re: Here's a good 1st amendment question.
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2013, 07:16:42 PM »

Crap, now what am I going to do with this bullhorn.  =(

CT  stuck it in under a statute "Interfering with Legislation" subsection c prohibitng firearms, explosives etc etc. If this were not the case I would walk in there concealed with no fear of prosecution and unbeknownst to all other individuals. Therefore no movement would or should be construed as threatening.

Part of my arguement will be that given the 2010 violent crime rate in Hartford (last data available) is some 350% higher than the national average I contend that requiring me to disarm in order to attend a meeting in Hartford is a gross disregard for my personal safety on the part of the CT state legislature and therefore it is an abridgement on my 1st amendment right to assemble peaceably and speak in a government forum. The requirement curtails my right to assemble and speak.

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