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Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 186875 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #650 on: July 25, 2013, 04:55:42 PM »

I just saw that article. I wonder how truthful she was being when she said, "You can't put the man in jail even though in our hearts we felt he was guilty, ..." But then she goes on to say that she was the one who was going to create a hung jury, suggesting that the other five jurors weren't so convinced "in their hearts" that he was guilty of murder.

This woman is not very bright, and hopelessly conflicted. First she says he's a murderer even though she admits the evidence didn't prove that he committed murder, then she says the case shouldn't even have gone to trial.

Quote
"That's where I felt confused, where if a person kills someone, then you get charged for it," Maddy said. "But as the law was read to me, if you have no proof that he killed him intentionally, you can't say he's guilty."

When asked by Roberts whether the case should have gone to trial, Maddy said, "I don't think so."

"I felt like this was a publicity stunt. This whole court service thing to me was publicity," she said.

She also said they were "trying" to find him guilty. That right there is wrong. A jury is not supposed to try to find a defendant either guilty or not guilty, they are supposed to try to decide whether or not the evidence supports the charge(s). Nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks be to the deity of your choice that the other five jurors were able to convince this baby machine to just suck it up and follow the law.

drewtam

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #651 on: July 25, 2013, 05:54:19 PM »

Your right Hawkmoon. Yet, I think that is the purpose of the jury, so that the verdict does not hang on one person's biases, judgements, and feelings. In this case, I would say the system worked.
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Levant

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Re: Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #652 on: July 25, 2013, 06:43:59 PM »

Luckily most bleeding hearts don't have strength in their convictions.


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Hawkmoon

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #653 on: July 25, 2013, 06:47:05 PM »

She also said they were "trying" to find him guilty. That right there is wrong. A jury is not supposed to try to find a defendant either guilty or not guilty, they are supposed to try to decide whether or not the evidence supports the charge(s). Nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, where I wrote "nothing more, nothing less" above, I should have included an exception: Jury Nullification.

Especially in this day of zealous over-charging (see earlier comments on this topic), it may in fact be appropriate for a jury to "try" to find a defendant not guilty despite what a law says -- or what a judge says the law says. Those interested in learning more about this concept should look up FIJA - the Fully Informed Jurors Association. Not all laws are good laws, and some laws may technically apply to a particular defendant and a particular set of circumstances yet morally and practically it would be a miscarriage of justice (albeit not of the law) to convict.

In such cases, the jury has every right to refuse to convict -- regardless of what the law (or the judge) says. And, in fact, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled to this effect. Sadly, they later (100 years later, in fact) ruled that judges don't have to inform jurors that they have a right (or a duty) to decide whether or not a law is just and fair. In fact, judges routinely tell jurors that they are NOT allowed to interpret the law, that they (the jury) must accept what the judge tells them the law says.

That's a lie.

Way, way back, in the early days of the U.S. a case came before the Supreme Court. The case was Georgia v. Brailsford, 3 U.S. 1 (1794). In that case, John Jay, the very first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, wrote that

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It may not be amiss, here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the jury, on questions of law, it is the province of the court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully, within your power of decision.

In 1895 in Sparf v. United States, the Court said that courts need not inform jurors of their de facto right of juror nullification although jurors' inherent right to judge the law remains unchallenged.

I have posted before (though perhaps not on this forum) that I was once rejected for jury duty over this very issue. During voir dire, which was being carried out by groups rather than individually as I had always encountered during previous calls to jury duty, one of the attorneys asked if anyone would have a problem following the judge's instructions on the law. Normally, I would have kept my mouth shut, but ... we were under oath, so I had to raise my hand and acknowledge that if I disagreed with what a judge said, i would indeed have trouble following his or her instructions.

That threw the process into a furor. The other prospective jurors were quickly removed from the room. BOTH attorneys ganged up on me and tried to brow-beat me into acknowledging that jurors must follow the judge's instructions. When I refused to knuckle under, they scoured the courthouse until they found a judge who wasn't in a hearing, and brought me before her. She took up the inquisition right where the attorneys had left off. When I mentioned the old Supreme Court precedent (I didn't recall the case name then), the judge told me I was wrong, and that I should go home and study my history better. She then dismissed me.

So I went home, looked up the case, verified the exact language used by the Chief Justice, and wrote a letter to the judge providing her with the case name and citation, and the exact quotation from John Jay.

She never acknowledged my letter. Judges don't like it when the serfs get uppity.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 07:00:40 PM by Hawkmoon »

Hutch

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #654 on: July 26, 2013, 08:26:26 AM »

Imagine the jury being the first 6 (or twelve) audience members of the Jerry Springer show.
"My limited experience does not permit me to appreciate the unquestionable wisdom of your decision"

Seems like every day, I'm forced to add to the list of people who can just kiss my hairy ass.

Hawkmoon

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #655 on: July 26, 2013, 11:14:34 AM »

Imagine the jury being the first 6 (or twelve) audience members of the Jerry Springer show.

BLEACH! I need brain bleach, STAT!

Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #656 on: August 07, 2013, 08:39:30 AM »

Roo ster, that blog is cheerleading, not analysis.  This is the same guy who thought the 3 hour, knock knock joke defense opening statement just smashed the case.....uhhh, yeah. 

The hyping of trial moments in this case greatly exceeds anything I've seen; maybe Scott Peterson's trial was the only thing close I'm aware of.  There'd be a press release exclaiming that this or that expert was definitively shot down by the defense....they continued right up until the releases read "no way state will keep his death penalty conviction on appeal!"

I suspect the conspiracy will be bigger in a couple of weeks time, its supporters baffled at the outcome for Zimmerman and seeing nothing but corruption to explain it.


 =D

That is all.
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Fitz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #657 on: August 07, 2013, 08:47:19 AM »

Where has De Selby been since the verdict?
Fitz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #658 on: August 07, 2013, 09:27:08 AM »

Where has De Selby been since the verdict?

Good question....
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cordex

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #659 on: August 07, 2013, 09:36:24 AM »

Where has De Selby been since the verdict?
Down under the weather, I think.

Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #660 on: August 07, 2013, 10:49:40 AM »

He's probably busy, maybe traveling. Most likely, he's assisting DOJ with their hate crimes investigation.  =)
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Tallpine

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #661 on: August 07, 2013, 10:51:56 AM »

I think he burned his law degree and is living out in the bush with the aborigines.   :lol:
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seeker_two

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #662 on: August 07, 2013, 06:30:28 PM »

Where has De Selby been since the verdict?

He certainly hasn't been caught speeding in Texas....

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Balog

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #663 on: August 07, 2013, 06:31:30 PM »

Name:  De Selby
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Last Active:  August 06, 2013, 09:17:40 PM
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Ron

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #664 on: August 07, 2013, 07:12:07 PM »

My intuition about what happened that night and my position based upon the reports/known evidence (or lack thereof) against GZ has been confirmed by a jury. Hurray for me.

Truth be told I figured it was going to go down as DeSelby incorrectly prognosticated.

Having said that, I completely understand why DeSelby isn't posting. There is a long line of members here just waiting to shove his words back in his face, gloat and even demean him. Fistfull may be the official scapegoat but DeSelby is the unofficial whipping post. Members frequently are allowed to treat them differently due to their vocal and often differing positions.
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sumpnz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #665 on: August 07, 2013, 08:08:49 PM »

I'll certainly admit to being rather harsh with De Selby in the past.  That said, in this case at least I would not pile on unless he got snarky.

Stand_watie

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #666 on: August 07, 2013, 09:02:47 PM »

Actually Ron you made me feel a little bad.

I'll say something nice about De Selby, he has passion for his positions.

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Monkeyleg

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #667 on: August 07, 2013, 10:08:25 PM »

I think DeSelby comes here at least in part just to argue, to keep his skills honed. There's nothing to hone now. He'd just have to eat crow.

Hawkmoon

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #668 on: August 07, 2013, 10:15:06 PM »

He's not the the only one who called it wrong. Before the trial, I was fairly sure Zimmerman would be convicted. When the prosecution rested, I had switched to predicting an acquittal. By the time the defense had rested and the prosecution rebutted, I was expecting at best a hung jury.

I did NOT expect an acquittal at the end, and I certainly didn't expect a verdict as quickly as it came in.

cordex

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #669 on: August 07, 2013, 10:20:07 PM »

I think DeSelby comes here at least in part just to argue, to keep his skills honed. There's nothing to hone now. He'd just have to eat crow.
Yep.

AJ Dual

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #670 on: August 08, 2013, 12:01:12 AM »

My intuition about what happened that night and my position based upon the reports/known evidence (or lack thereof) against GZ has been confirmed by a jury. Hurray for me.

Truth be told I figured it was going to go down as DeSelby incorrectly prognosticated.

Having said that, I completely understand why DeSelby isn't posting. There is a long line of members here just waiting to shove his words back in his face, gloat and even demean him. Fistfull may be the official scapegoat but DeSelby is the unofficial whipping post. Members frequently are allowed to treat them differently due to their vocal and often differing positions.

Pfft...

"Polite Society" and the TOS only goes so far in tolerating someone who's beliefs and political leanings are among the root causes of the decline of Western Civilization in general, and America in particular.

I think DeSelby comes here at least in part just to argue, to keep his skills honed. There's nothing to hone now. He'd just have to eat crow.

That and his own chosen name here is of a literary character who's used intentionally as a foil and a buffoon...
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #671 on: August 08, 2013, 12:29:26 AM »

Pfft...

"Polite Society" and the TOS only goes so far in tolerating someone who's beliefs and political leanings are among the root causes of the decline of Western Civilization in general, and America in particular.


Oh, so you feel free to abuse me, then? That's it, I'm outta here!  :mad:
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Jamisjockey

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #672 on: August 08, 2013, 09:24:53 AM »

Okay it's not the "beat up on ds" post.  Move along folks. Nothing to see here.


So has the DOJ announced anything about charges?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #673 on: August 08, 2013, 09:56:47 AM »

Okay it's not the "beat up on ds" post.  Move along folks. Nothing to see here.


So has the DOJ announced anything about charges?


I don't think so. I predict they will announce charges next (election) year. If they don't, I'll return to this thread for my helping of crow.
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Ben

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #674 on: August 08, 2013, 10:20:21 AM »

So has the DOJ announced anything about charges?

No, but they did say that if Obama had sons, they would resemble these three youths:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/07/florida-school-bus-beatdown-goes-unnoticed-by-self-styled-civil-rights/?test=latestnews
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