Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 219264 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2013, 01:10:05 AM »

HankB said it perfect...

"One lesson to take from this: If I'm EVER on a neighborhood watch and see someone/something suspicious, I'm going to keep my distance, stay in my car, and make darned sure that's what the recording of my 911 call will make clear!"

That's the problem, isn't it?  =| 
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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2013, 03:08:32 AM »
That's the problem, isn't it?  =| 

The key fact here isn't going to see about the unknown - it's attempting to close with someone who is obviously trying to get away - that's what's created the most jeopardy for Zimmerman.   The kid was (in Zimmerman's words) about to get away, and Zimmerman went to stop that.

If you're going to force someone to make contact with you who has made clear they don't want you near them, lethal force is off the table. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2013, 03:24:20 AM »
Not according to the phone evidence on both sides. There was more than a minute between Zimmerman losing sight of Martin and their re-encounter. During that time Zimmerman did not leave the path nor proceed further toward Martin's destination. Martin either stayed in the area or returned during that time, even the prosecution isn't alleging Zimmerman actually ran him down.
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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2013, 03:48:01 AM »
Not according to the phone evidence on both sides. There was more than a minute between Zimmerman losing sight of Martin and their re-encounter. During that time Zimmerman did not leave the path nor proceed further toward Martin's destination. Martin either stayed in the area or returned during that time, even the prosecution isn't alleging Zimmerman actually ran him down.

Except the witness who was on the phone with the victim says otherwise - not that it matters, as the entire confrontation happened far from Zimmerman's car and behind a row of houses where Zimmerman went to in order to follow the victim.  Whether Trayvon Martin exacerbated the confrontation is a matter for sentencing - it'll certainly buy Zimmerman a few years back.

Like I said, in terms of self defense in any state, this set of facts WILL land you in hot water.  Don't go chasing people who want to get away from you when armed.  Going after people who aren't doing anything wrong makes it worse.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Regolith

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2013, 03:50:56 AM »
Except the witness who was on the phone with the victim says otherwise - not that it matters, as the entire confrontation happened far from Zimmerman's car and behind a row of houses where Zimmerman went to in order to follow the victim.  Whether Trayvon Martin exacerbated the confrontation is a matter for sentencing - it'll certainly buy Zimmerman a few years back.

The same witness who has been caught in several lies, couldn't read the letter she supposedly wrote, and whose initial deposition took place in Martin's house with his mother sitting right beside her?

Yeah, no, her credibility is completely shot to *expletive deleted*.
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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2013, 03:55:26 AM »
The same witness who has been caught in several lies, couldn't read the letter she supposedly wrote, and whose initial deposition took place in Martin's house with his mother sitting right beside her?

Yeah, no, her credibility is completely shot to *expletive deleted*.

You can believe that if you like - lots of people are cheerleading the trial and would love for the witnesses to fit their views.  I doubt strongly the jury will see it the same way.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Regolith

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2013, 05:32:12 AM »
You can believe that if you like - lots of people are cheerleading the trial and would love for the witnesses to fit their views. 

You being the prime example.

There wasn't a single witness the state brought in that didn't end up being essentially a defense witness. They were either loopy and had basic, established and agreed upon facts wrong (such as the lady who testified that she heard three gunshots, when every other piece of evidence says there was only one, and the previously mentioned girlfriend), or essentially ended up supporting Zimmerman's case (such as the guy who testified that he saw the black guy in the dark hoodie on top of the white/hispanic guy doing an "MMA-style ground and pound", his words).

Only someone who has a SERIOUS bias in this case, or who has only caught the shitty national coverage of it, could think that the prosecution has come anywhere NEAR proving its case.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2013, 06:01:52 AM »
Regolith, if the facts were so clear, this would've been disposed of by a pre trial hearing.  That the defense didn't even try to do that is instructive - it can only mean they had no chance whatsoever.

The investigating officer, two judges, and several DAs have seen facts supporting a case.  Try this experiment if you think my analysis is off: contact an attorney you trust, and tell them that you're on the neighbourhood watch, and that sometimes you see people wandering the sidewalk in your neighbourhood who run away when you follow them slowly in your car.  Ask this person what would happen if you ran after them and ended up shooting one - see what advice you get back.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Regolith

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2013, 06:16:35 AM »
Regolith, if the facts were so clear, this would've been disposed of by a pre trial hearing.  That the defense didn't even try to do that is instructive - it can only mean they had no chance whatsoever.

The investigating officer, two judges, and several DAs have seen facts supporting a case.  Try this experiment if you think my analysis is off: contact an attorney you trust, and tell them that you're on the neighbourhood watch, and that sometimes you see people wandering the sidewalk in your neighbourhood who run away when you follow them slowly in your car.  Ask this person what would happen if you ran after them and ended up shooting one - see what advice you get back.

Have you even been following this case? Read any of the articles that Rooster has linked too? Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about, here. The trial has been going for several days, and all of this has come out during the trial. The prosecution has yet to rest, but I'm guessing that the defense is going to move to dismiss after they do, and if the judge has even a shred of integrity*, he'll grant the motion.

The state has to prove, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman confronted and attacked Martin, and they have miserably, utterly, and pathetically failed to do so.

*it's quite possible he has none, or is too scared of the consequences of doing so, given that this trial has been a political lynching from start to finish.

ETA: also, I find the attitude that you're displaying here, that because the prosecution successfully brought this case to trial it means that Zimmerman MUST be guilty or that he WILL be found guilty, to be absolutely disgusting. The trial is supposed to prove guilt, not any *expletive deleted*ing pretrial hearings. I hope to god you picked up that attitude overseas and not in the US, because it is antithetical to everything this country was founded on.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 06:24:17 AM by Regolith »
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

lupinus

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2013, 07:12:01 AM »
Regolith, if the facts were so clear, this would've been disposed of by a pre trial hearing.  That the defense didn't even try to do that is instructive - it can only mean they had no chance whatsoever.

The investigating officer, two judges, and several DAs have seen facts supporting a case.
Have you paid any attention to the lead up to this case? Seriously?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2013, 08:19:07 AM »
Have you paid any attention to the lead up to this case? Seriously?


Yes I have, and I doubt you could find a lawyer in America to give these facts to and have him say "yep, you'd be entirely defensible!  Get your neighbourhood watch badge polished and get chasing those random people in your neighbourhood!"

But I guess they all hate America.  Apparently correctly stating that the law of self defense doesn't favor people who enter into avoidable confrontations is unpatriotic, and if you go by some comments, the only more noble George in the world than George Zimmerman is Washington.  Not sure how comforting it is to know tha t so many people think this kind of behaviour while armed is a ok.

Again, on some level his defense seems to have conceded that this case is arguable - they didn't even try for an SYG hearing, which would've resulted in immunity had it been won.  There is no imaginable reason to skip a free to at freeing your client unless it's hopeless, which in this case it would have been.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 08:24:01 AM by De Selby »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2013, 08:23:26 AM »
DeSelby is convinced Zimmerman is guilty and no amount of reason is going to change his mind.
JD

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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2013, 08:26:57 AM »
DeSelby is convinced Zimmerman is guilty and no amount of reason is going to change his mind.

No amount of hyperbole about Zimmerman will change the law of self defense, which you don't need to take my word for.  There's a veteran prosecutor and judicial officer explaining it to you all on this thread.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2013, 09:05:00 AM »
No amount of hyperbole about Zimmerman will change the law of self defense, which you don't need to take my word for.  There's a veteran prosecutor and judicial officer explaining it to you all on this thread.

Let me ask you a question.  No lawyerese.  No bullshit.  Yes, no.  No other answers allowed:

Is it reasonable to attack someone who has been following you at a distance? 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #89 on: June 29, 2013, 10:49:27 AM »
Let me ask you a question.  No lawyerese.  No bullshit.  Yes, no.  No other answers allowed:

Is it reasonable to attack someone who has been following you at a distance? 

That's an easy one:  no.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

dogmush

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #90 on: June 29, 2013, 11:02:42 AM »
But I guess they all hate America.  Apparently correctly stating that the law of self defense doesn't favor people who enter into avoidable confrontations is unpatriotic, and if you go by some comments, the only more noble George in the world than George Zimmerman is Washington. Not sure how comforting it is to know tha t so many people think this kind of behaviour while armed is a ok.

You keep mentioning this.  Would the case be somehow different if Zimmerman had choked Martin instead of shooting him?  You have seemed obsessed with the fact that he followed Martin with a gun. [/scary voice]

According to the only guy that saw it and survived, there was no confrontation until Martin.   started it. As I said way back when this all went down I fail to see how giving up a chase and walking back to your truck justifies an attack.  And if Martin's attack wasn't justified, then defense was.

ETA:

Quote
and if you go by some comments, the only more noble George in the world than George Zimmerman is Washington.

No one here has said that. Or even close to it. So just stop. The APS consensus (minus you) seems to be that he made some questionable calls, but was still entitled to defend himself when attacked. 

Tallpine

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #91 on: June 29, 2013, 11:07:24 AM »
I have a right to be armed in public.

I also have a right to walk up to someone and speak to them in public.

The two are not mutually exclusive.
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roo_ster

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #92 on: June 29, 2013, 11:13:33 AM »
From one POV, DS is correct.  

Talk to pretty much any lawyer about any action and you will get a response along the lines of "If you take that action, you risk legal repercussions."  You can be entirely legal, follow the guidelines of major associations, be extremely conscientious, and still find your ass in court.  You still risk legal action by the legal lottery players and those with an excess of legal training and a deficit of ethics and morality.  BTDT.  [Shakespeare was wrong.  He should have written, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers...and then their children as an example to the others."]

There is no way to assure you won't find yourself afoul of a lawyer in a civil case or a prosecutor in a criminal case.  Any action more vigorous than climbing out of bed increases the chance of being a target.  Since the legal system is run by lawyers for their benefit above all else, we see suits and charges run riot much longer than any reasonable system would allow.

=======================

Basing the strength of Z's case on the dearth of pre-trial motions to dismiss or SYG hearings is either ignorant or disingenuous.  The local DA and local LEOs saw the set of facts and decided not to charge.  After a racial shinola storm that included the POTUS grunting about it, another prosecutor was brought on by the most powerful political figure in the state and ordered to get the right answer.  This prosecutor gathered no more evidence than the previous one did before he charged Zimmerman with murder.  Also, the original judge was so obviously biased, he was removed.  The likelihood that Christ Himself would prevail in a SYG hearing or motion to dismiss given that environment approaches zero.  Saying Z has a poor case based on it is ignorant or disingenuous, again.

This far in the Zimmerman trial, the prosecutor has yet to provide a credible witness that challenges Zimmerman's story.  Several state witnesses bolster his story.  The "star witness" with the most damaging story relative to Z turned out to be a lying, perjuring, resentful, dunk-driving pothead half-wit with a new story for every occasion.  And those are her good points.  This is the witness DS cites every other post as providing damning testimony.

I thought that perhaps the author whose digests I read was slanting it in Z's favor.  See, I, too, had gotten some of the MSM/race-huckster inkcloud in my eyes.  Watching the videos set me straight.  Great Sex-Positive Cthulhu on roller skates.  

Thus far it looks like the prosecution doesn't have squat and is hoping the jury is too scared or intimidated to acquit.  If they were looking to posthumously convict Martin of assault, they might have a substantive case.
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roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2013, 11:19:42 AM »
Except the witness who was on the phone with the victim says otherwise - not that it matters, as the entire confrontation happened far from Zimmerman's car and behind a row of houses where Zimmerman went to in order to follow the victim.  Whether Trayvon Martin exacerbated the confrontation is a matter for sentencing - it'll certainly buy Zimmerman a few years back.

Like I said, in terms of self defense in any state, this set of facts WILL land you in hot water.  Don't go chasing people who want to get away from you when armed.  Going after people who aren't doing anything wrong makes it worse.

Did you watch the testimony of this witness?  

If so, would you trust this witness to:
1. Ever be up at dawn.
2. Look out the window and tell you the correct direction from which the sun is rising?

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Jamisjockey

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #94 on: June 29, 2013, 11:43:41 AM »
That's an easy one:  no.



Next question:

Do you have the right to physically assault someone who verbally challenged you?
JD

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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #95 on: June 29, 2013, 12:12:51 PM »
Next question:

Do you have the right to physically assault someone who verbally challenged you?

No
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #96 on: June 29, 2013, 12:19:47 PM »
No

If you're on your back, having your head slammed into the sidewalk repeatedly, would you consider that a risk to your life, or a risk of suffering grave bodily harm?
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #97 on: June 29, 2013, 12:25:50 PM »
If you're on your back, having your head slammed into the sidewalk repeatedly, would you consider that a risk to your life, or a risk of suffering grave bodily harm?

Yes I would. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

lupinus

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #98 on: June 29, 2013, 12:42:11 PM »
 [popcorn]
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #99 on: June 29, 2013, 12:49:37 PM »
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds