Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 219289 times)

Monkeyleg

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #100 on: June 29, 2013, 12:55:55 PM »
Yes I would. 

Oh, Jesus. I listened to some airhead on Hannity on Thursday going on about how Zimmerman was only being punched in the face. It's not like he was in fear for his life, she said.

I've read hundreds, maybe thousands, of stories of people being punched to death. It's not a *expletive deleted*ing bloody lip. You can kill someone punching him in the face, and it happens all the time. As I've mentioned before, I have a condition that would likely blind or kill me if I were punched in the face, but even someone with no physical problems is at risk of great bodily harm or injury from being punched.

In the first defense shooting after Texas passed their shall-issue CCW bill, a driver shot and killed another driver after an accident. The deceased had reached through the window of the shooter's car and was punching him in the face, and was trying to pull the shooter out the window of the car. When the shooter had sustained enough injuries (including a detached retina), he fired, killing his attacker. The DA no-billed him.

According to the man who witnessed the attack (as opposed to talking to Martin on the phone), Martin was on top of Zimmerman, had Zimmerman's arms pinned to the ground with his knees, and was repeatedly punching Zimmerman's face. That sounds like a scenario for some pretty serious damage.


lupinus

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #101 on: June 29, 2013, 01:20:15 PM »
You should share.
Sure, its on the house after all [popcorn] [popcorn]

That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Ryan in Maine

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #102 on: June 29, 2013, 01:58:52 PM »
Whose testimony has helped (either side) so far?

Ricardo A - Sanford PD Off
Selene B - resident/witness
Wendy D - Sanford PD watch coordinator
Andrew G - 7-11 employee
Jon G - resident/witness
Rachel J - witness
Chad J - Tray M's sort of brother
Jennifer L - resident/witness
Stacy L - Sanford FD firefighter/EMT
Raymond M - T-Mobile exec
Jeannee M - resident/witness
John M - resident/witness
Greg M - offsite security
Sean N - dispatcher
Donald O - HOA president
Anthony R - Sanford PD Sgt
Ramona R - Sheriff's comm office
Diana S - crime scene technician
Timothy S - Sanford PD Off
Jane S - resident/witness

Seems to me that, so far, they've either been useless, lost their credibility, or helped the defense (if anyone).

Phyphor

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2013, 02:01:29 PM »
You should share.

Git your own, hippie!  [popcorn]  :rofl:
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2013, 02:22:40 PM »
Would it be reasonable to assume that *if* Zimmerman did not physically assault or threaten Martin that he should have not had an expectation for a physical confrontation to ensure? To that I will include physically blocking Martin from escaping.
JD

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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #105 on: June 29, 2013, 02:35:12 PM »
Would it be reasonable to assume that *if* Zimmerman did not physically assault or threaten Martin that he should have not had an expectation for a physical confrontation to ensure? To that I will include physically blocking Martin from escaping.

Yeah, no - that's where the defense falls apart.  You and your counterpart can both be guilty of crimes that invalidate self-defense claims for both of you - it would be entirely reasonable (as Zimmerman explained on tape) for him to assume that Trayvon wanted to get away from him, and hence that Trayvon would take foreseeable (if unreasonable) measures to do so.  That much was on tape.  

But like I said, don't take my advice, and I'll add to that don't take a veteran prosecutor/judge's advice: ask an attorney where you live how these facts would apply to you.  See what that person tells you.
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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #106 on: June 29, 2013, 02:41:35 PM »
Oh, Jesus. I listened to some airhead on Hannity on Thursday going on about how Zimmerman was only being punched in the face. It's not like he was in fear for his life, she said.

I've read hundreds, maybe thousands, of stories of people being punched to death. It's not a *expletive deleted* bloody lip. You can kill someone punching him in the face, and it happens all the time. As I've mentioned before, I have a condition that would likely blind or kill me if I were punched in the face, but even someone with no physical problems is at risk of great bodily harm or injury from being punched.

In the first defense shooting after Texas passed their shall-issue CCW bill, a driver shot and killed another driver after an accident. The deceased had reached through the window of the shooter's car and was punching him in the face, and was trying to pull the shooter out the window of the car. When the shooter had sustained enough injuries (including a detached retina), he fired, killing his attacker. The DA no-billed him.

According to the man who witnessed the attack (as opposed to talking to Martin on the phone), Martin was on top of Zimmerman, had Zimmerman's arms pinned to the ground with his knees, and was repeatedly punching Zimmerman's face. That sounds like a scenario for some pretty serious damage.



Yep, being pulled out of the car in a road rage incident is entirely different from chasing down someone who runs away from you (and doing so on tape) with the intention to "stop that ahole from getting away" (Zimmerman's words).   

Get out of your car to chase someone and end up in a lethal force situation, you are going to face hard time.

Remain in your vehicle after simply following traffic and have some road rager come back to attack you?  Not so much.  The difference between the two is pretty easy to spot.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #107 on: June 29, 2013, 02:44:06 PM »
how did zimmerman chase him down again?  was the kid on crutches?
wasn't the kid within a minute of his house at one point and somehow ended up on top of zimmerman? instead of home behind locked doors?
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Tallpine

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #108 on: June 29, 2013, 02:46:13 PM »
how did zimmerman chase him down again?  was the kid on crutches?
wasn't the kid within a minute of his house at one point and somehow ended up on top of zimmerman? instead of home behind locked doors?

Must be some sort of anomaly in the time space continuim that I am agreeing 100% with CSD on something  :lol:
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AJ Dual

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #109 on: June 29, 2013, 02:51:04 PM »
Yeah, no - that's where the defense falls apart.  You and your counterpart can both be guilty of crimes that invalidate self-defense claims for both of you - it would be entirely reasonable (as Zimmerman explained on tape) for him to assume that Trayvon wanted to get away from him, and hence that Trayvon would take foreseeable (if unreasonable) measures to do so.  That much was on tape.  

But like I said, don't take my advice, and I'll add to that don't take a veteran prosecutor/judge's advice: ask an attorney where you live how these facts would apply to you.  See what that person tells you.

Well, I have. The lawyer friend of mine who is an Appleseed instructor, and who did my NFA trust. He was an ADA before going into private criminal defense practice. And it's his business card that rides behind my CCW permit.  Given the facts as we know them through the media, and the conflicting facts as we know them through the prosecution's case so far, even without defense rebuttal, he says even his lefty anti-RKBA/anti-CCW cohorts  in the prosecutor's office would have no-billed Zimmerman considering there's simply no way to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

If he's convicted, it will be for larger racial issues period.

Considering what we've seen of the testimony with our own eyes, what high profile Harvard Law attorney Alan Dershowitz has had to say about the case, people here who are judges/magistrates on this board, and everyone here but you in this thread says, I can only conclude one of two things.

You are biased because you have an ulterior motive in favor of Martin to strike a blow for larger cultural issues that are important to you, such as "white privilege" etc., or you simply like to argue, and have been playing Devil's Advocate all this time without announcing you are because it entertains you.

I promise not to duck.

De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #110 on: June 29, 2013, 02:54:17 PM »
Well, I have. The lawyer friend of mine who is an Appleseed instructor, and who did my NFA trust. He was an ADA before going into private criminal defense practice. And it's his business card that rides behind my CCW permit.  Given the facts as we know them through the media, he says even his lefty anti-RKBA/anti-CCW cohorts  in the prosecutor's office would have no-billed Zimmerman considering there's simply no way to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Considering what we've seen of the testimony with our own eyes, what high profile Harvard Law attorney Alan Dershowitz has had to say about the case, everyone here but you in this thread says, I can only conclude one of two things.

You are biased because you have an ulterior motive in favor of Martin to strike a blow for larger cultural issues that are important to you, such as "white privilege" etc., or you simply like to argue, and have been playing Devil's Advocate all this time without announcing you are because it entertains you.



Well, tell you what - PM me for my details and I'll be happy to contact your ADA/NFA trust attorney directly to discuss how we arrived at this position.  "No billing" is something that happens only in Grand Jury states, of which there are a limited number.  I'll be pleased to be educated by my betters.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #111 on: June 29, 2013, 04:19:40 PM »
Yeah, no - that's where the defense falls apart.  You and your counterpart can both be guilty of crimes that invalidate self-defense claims for both of you - it would be entirely reasonable (as Zimmerman explained on tape) for him to assume that Trayvon wanted to get away from him, and hence that Trayvon would take foreseeable (if unreasonable) measures to do so.  That much was on tape.  

But like I said, don't take my advice, and I'll add to that don't take a veteran prosecutor/judge's advice: ask an attorney where you live how these facts would apply to you.  See what that person tells you.


I like how you automatically assume that I somehow support Zimmerman' s choice of following an unknown person in the dark on foot, and go on the attack to change the topic.
You're full of *expletive deleted*it, and your law degree gives you an over inflated sense of the value of your opinion. 
Zimmerman is an idiot.  But no reasonable person stops and attacks someone who is following them. 
JD

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roo_ster

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #112 on: June 29, 2013, 05:27:16 PM »
how did zimmerman chase him down again?  was the kid on crutches?
wasn't the kid within a minute of his house at one point and somehow ended up on top of zimmerman? instead of home behind locked doors?

Hey, some clinically obese folks are pretty fast on their feet.  Think 300lb offensive lineman. 
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Tallpine

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #113 on: June 29, 2013, 05:40:23 PM »
Funny, there is a road in Billings called "Zimmerman Trail"   =D
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dogmush

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #114 on: June 29, 2013, 05:55:18 PM »
Yeah, no - that's where the defense falls apart.  You and your counterpart can both be guilty of crimes that invalidate self-defense claims for both of you

And Zimmerman's crime would be what? Following while White*.


*(Hispanic)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 06:10:00 PM by dogmush »

Jamisjockey

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #115 on: June 29, 2013, 06:32:21 PM »
Hey, some clinically obese folks are pretty fast on their feet.  Think 300lb offensive lineman. 

Zimmerman was much smaller before the trial.  He's been in seclusion and put on a lot of weight since then.


Zimmerman is listed as 5'8" and 200lb on the night of the shooting in the police report.  Martin's autopsy is listed at 6'0" and 160lb.  So he had 4" of height on Zimmerman, not a huge advantage.  Zimmerman seems to have short fat guy build while Martin had tall lanky build, so I promise you he had a good wingspan advantage over Zimmerman.  A lot of reach means he could strike before really getting in his face.
JD

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cordex

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #116 on: June 29, 2013, 08:31:51 PM »
Yeah, no - that's where the defense falls apart.  You and your counterpart can both be guilty of crimes that invalidate self-defense claims for both of you - it would be entirely reasonable (as Zimmerman explained on tape) for him to assume that Trayvon wanted to get away from him, and hence that Trayvon would take foreseeable (if unreasonable) measures to do so.  That much was on tape.  
Even assuming that under the circumstances that if chasing and so much as speaking to T would invalidate self defense, in this case, the problem for your position is that no currently available evidence or testimony (with the possible exception of a piece of Jeantelle's statement which was modified after she was confronted with T's family) indicates that Z:
1. Intended to catch T rather than observe from a distance and wait for the police to arrive (as police often advise).
2. Did catch up with and confront Z as opposed to turning around and then being approached by T as Z claims.

In short, for you to even have a point we are required to make a series of assumptions not supported by available evidence.  That is not to say that we are certain Z didn't hang up with 911 and keep chasing after T with the intent to catch him, just that we have nothing that shows that he did.

Yes, Z made mistakes. Yes, no matter what he will forever regret his decision to get out of bed that morning - to say nothing of his decision to get out of the car. Even so, you and the prosecution have an uphill battle to sell a story (possibly the true one) that lacks supporting evidence.

drewtam

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #117 on: June 29, 2013, 08:32:49 PM »
Oh, Jesus. I listened to some airhead on Hannity on Thursday going on about how Zimmerman was only being punched in the face. It's not like he was in fear for his life, she said.

I've read hundreds, maybe thousands, of stories of people being punched to death. It's not a *expletive deleted* bloody lip. You can kill someone punching him in the face, and it happens all the time. As I've mentioned before, I have a condition that would likely blind or kill me if I were punched in the face, but even someone with no physical problems is at risk of great bodily harm or injury from being punched.

In the first defense shooting after Texas passed their shall-issue CCW bill, a driver shot and killed another driver after an accident. The deceased had reached through the window of the shooter's car and was punching him in the face, and was trying to pull the shooter out the window of the car. When the shooter had sustained enough injuries (including a detached retina), he fired, killing his attacker. The DA no-billed him.

According to the man who witnessed the attack (as opposed to talking to Martin on the phone), Martin was on top of Zimmerman, had Zimmerman's arms pinned to the ground with his knees, and was repeatedly punching Zimmerman's face. That sounds like a scenario for some pretty serious damage.

I think this is an important observation. Women do not have practical experience with male/male all out unarmed fights. (Tautological, but stick with me here.) They do not know what it is like to pass out from blows to the back of the head. They do not understand how dangerous a ground and pound is, and why the MMA organizers will call the fight very quickly once that situation develops. They do not understand the absolute fear for your life becomes of being in that position.

This is an all woman jury.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #118 on: June 29, 2013, 09:16:12 PM »
I think this is an important observation. Women do not have practical experience with male/male all out unarmed fights. (Tautological, but stick with me here.) They do not know what it is like to pass out from blows to the back of the head. They do not understand how dangerous a ground and pound is, and why the MMA organizers will call the fight very quickly once that situation develops. They do not understand the absolute fear for your life becomes of being in that position.

This is an all woman jury.

Errr... Not nessasrly true, but I see what you're getting at.

(I'm pretty sure plenty of woman know what it's like to get pounded on by a man, from first hand experiance)
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seeker_two

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #119 on: June 29, 2013, 09:22:42 PM »

(I'm pretty sure plenty of woman know what it's like to get pounded on by a man, from first hand experiance)

^^^^^ This.....might work out in Zimmerman's favor.....
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French G.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #120 on: June 29, 2013, 09:40:17 PM »
I think this is an important observation. Women do not have practical experience with male/male all out unarmed fights. (Tautological, but stick with me here.) They do not know what it is like to pass out from blows to the back of the head. They do not understand how dangerous a ground and pound is, and why the MMA organizers will call the fight very quickly once that situation develops. They do not understand the absolute fear for your life becomes of being in that position.

This is an all woman jury.

Hopefully the defense gets an expert witness.

I could have been Zimmerman. 22-23 years old, hopefully dumber than now and I detained a neighborhood smash and grab artist. I certainly had more right to be there than him since I was in front of my house. In the city, me white, him not so much, me an evil assault rifle. First, I realized my tactical Ted limitations. He probably would have stood there until the cops showed up but balked at being proned out. I was smart enough not to initiate contact to force him to and to not shoot him when he declined and walked away. That's all fine and good but when I followed him down the street and tackled him no good was going to come of it. I had ditched the gun, ended up with his jacket that he slipped out of, after having ended up with him on top of me because we rolled when I forcibly introduced him to the ground. I'm really glad that ended well, I don't see me wrongfully shooting the guy, but the utility knife in the guy's pocket might have been a problem for me had the guy been of a different demeanor.
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drewtam

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2013, 01:07:33 AM »
(I'm pretty sure plenty of woman know what it's like to get pounded on by a man, from first hand experiance)

No offense, but its just not the same, I'm pretty sure many women will think its the same. They can even point to a video and say, "it looks the same to me".  Still not the same level. The number of woman with actual experience with that level of fighting is pretty small *not zero, but relatively small. (If I where to WAG, I'd put it at 1/1000 women and I might be biased high just from growing up in Joliet). Which I think goes to show how different is the experience and perspective.

But I don't just mean taking a beating, I mean the whole experience of giving and taking. Fighting out that male hierarchical order, martial sports, fighting best friends, and just screwing around fighting for fun. The give and take, the sportsmen level to the fight of fury throughout a males life makes him more in tune with what level of seriousness and risk is on the table and how to respond in kind. I am absolutely convinced that most women are not in tune to that landscape.
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Phyphor

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2013, 01:34:09 AM »
No offense, but its just not the same, I'm pretty sure many women will think its the same. They can even point to a video and say, "it looks the same to me".  Still not the same level. The number of woman with actual experience with that level of fighting is pretty small *not zero, but relatively small. (If I where to WAG, I'd put it at 1/1000 women and I might be biased high just from growing up in Joliet). Which I think goes to show how different is the experience and perspective.

But I don't just mean taking a beating, I mean the whole experience of giving and taking. Fighting out that male hierarchical order, martial sports, fighting best friends, and just screwing around fighting for fun. The give and take, the sportsmen level to the fight of fury throughout a males life makes him more in tune with what level of seriousness and risk is on the table and how to respond in kind. I am absolutely convinced that most women are not in tune to that landscape.

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Marnoot

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2013, 02:06:59 AM »
No offense, but its just not the same, I'm pretty sure many women will think its the same. They can even point to a video and say, "it looks the same to me".  Still not the same level. The number of woman with actual experience with that level of fighting is pretty small *not zero, but relatively small. (If I where to WAG, I'd put it at 1/1000 women and I might be biased high just from growing up in Joliet). Which I think goes to show how different is the experience and perspective.

But I don't just mean taking a beating, I mean the whole experience of giving and taking. Fighting out that male hierarchical order, martial sports, fighting best friends, and just screwing around fighting for fun. The give and take, the sportsmen level to the fight of fury throughout a males life makes him more in tune with what level of seriousness and risk is on the table and how to respond in kind. I am absolutely convinced that most women are not in tune to that landscape.

Eh, I'm a man and I've never been in a real fisticuffs fight in my life and the vast majority of men I know haven't either. So I'm not really sure this is something you can just broadly say that male jury members would "know what it's like" where females wouldn't.

Monkeyleg

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2013, 02:19:52 AM »
Quote
Eh, I'm a man and I've never been in a real fisticuffs fight in my life and the vast majority of men I know haven't either. So I'm not really sure this is something you can just broadly say that male jury members would "know what it's like" where females wouldn't.

As I think about it, I would guess that most guys I know haven't been in a serious fight. Maybe there isn't a jury that could be assembled that would understand what was at stake.