Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 219310 times)

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #150 on: June 30, 2013, 11:16:13 PM »
Quote
If a neighborhood has a number of break-ins, what should the police response look like?

Write more traffic tickets, of course  :police:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #151 on: July 01, 2013, 01:27:25 AM »
All any of this Monday morning quarterbacking and prosecution of civic-minded folks gets us is a less-involved citizenry.  Slap folk about enough for trying to keep up the neighborhood and pretty soon folk don't keep up the neighborhood.  Eventually you end up with East MF-ing St Louis.

We are ruled by amoral, psychopathic lawyers.  On both sides of the bench.  And in the legislatures. And their mindset is soaking into our culture like a poison.  (Or, maybe we are lucky and it is like a cancer, something that can be cut out, irradiated, or killed with heavy doses of chemo.)
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #152 on: July 01, 2013, 01:49:51 AM »
Quote
If a neighborhood has a number of break-ins, what should the police response look like?

Do what the cops do (or at least used to do) in the Democrat stronghold of Chicago: grab a random black guy off the street, put him in the wagon, beat the living hell out of him with night sticks, then leave him in an alley. It was a popular pastime for bored cops, and the Chicago machine supported them.

Zimmerman did what we're always told to do: report suspicious activity to the police. He also did what many of us have been told to do by our CCW instructors: don't use your gun unless you believe that you're at risk of great bodily harm. I'm sure there's many who would have pulled a gun the minute that Martin came out of hiding to ambush Zimmerman, and not waited until pinned down and nose broken.

Unless the prosecution has some big surprise, Zimmerman is innocent on all counts. I don't think that's the way it will play out, though. Race politics requires him to serve time for something, anything.

Phyphor

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,327
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #153 on: July 01, 2013, 03:04:56 AM »
He did call the police.  Then (according to his story and 911 transcript, anyway) he got out of the car to look for a street sign and house numbers to better direct them.  Possibly he wanted to see if he could spot the suspicious dude again.  More than that requires a making assumptions not based in evidence at hand.  Either way, it turned out to be a very bad decision, but not something I would have expected to lead to conflict, nor would I consider either act an escalation in and of itself.  If he actually was yelling "COME ON OUT YOU DIRTY HOODIE-WEARING THUG!" or somehow caught Travon and grabbed him from behind or something - okay, that's escalation.  Getting out of his car after Martin had already disappeared down a path?  Not so much.

Except we don't actually know what he did.  We have what he said.  I'm not saying he got physical first or he said racist things and pissed Martin off.  I'm just saying, as for myself personally, I would not have done what he did.  I would have taken the "good witness" tack UNLESS he was an obvious clear and present threat to someone else.  Him bebopping down the street acting doped up/crazy/weird while there's nobody else around? Not gonna try to antagonize him.

Him dragging someone off into the bushes while he's beating on them? Yeah, that's pretty much C&PD for someone right there.
I think I would do something about that.



Quote
In hindsight we can easily spot times and places he could have done something better that would have completely eliminated the conflict, but assuming Zimmerman is telling something even remotely close to the truth, at the time I don't see that he had any reason to assume his actions would lead to any sort of conflict whatsoever, much less a shooting.Out of curiosity, what do you think that entails?  If a neighborhood has a number of break-ins, what should the police response look like?

For one thing, they should probably have a few more visible patrols.  At the very least, they're showing the flag, and who knows? They might catch one of the bastards in the act.
Failing that, I'm not too sure.

 
"You know what's messed-up about taxes?
You don't even pay taxes. They take tax.
You get your check, money gone.
That ain't a payment, that's a jack." - Chris Rock "Bigger and Blacker"
He slapped his rifle. "This is one of the best arguments for peace there is. Nobody wants to shoot if somebody is going to shoot back. " Callaghen, Callaghen, Louis La'mour

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,817
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #154 on: July 01, 2013, 06:47:10 AM »
I like how DS and other keep mentioning the whole "why did they pursue charges/ why wasn't there a syg hearing" angle as "proof"

First of all, they know a SYG hearing would have failed because this is a politically motivated shitshow

Second, the cops and DA weren't going to charge him, as I recall, until the usual suspects started screaming for blood

Fitz, this is something that needs to be clarified - pursuing charges is never proof of a crime.  It is, however, an indicator that a case is not complete bs when the investigating officer, the DA, and two judges see enough evidence to put the question to a jury.   It just adds to the point when Zimmerman's own defense didn't ask for a dismissal which, if the facts were so clearly missing to support a conviction, would've been an easy win.

The question of guilt is a jury question now.  Based on the facts available, I think it's unrealistic that Zimmerman could present a defense that will refute the case for a conviction.

Jamis, I recognise that you acknowledge Zimmerman's decision to follow wasn't smart.  The problem is that behaviour which almost everyone would call dumb, if it results in a death, will nearly always put you in jeopardy.  Dumb behaviour that results in death is essentially the legal definition of manslaughter.  So if you agree that Zimmerman made a dumb move, that itself is half way to the conviction.

Monkey leg, the investigating officers recommended charging Zimmerman with homicide because he started a confrontation that led to a death.  It's simply not true to say that Zimmemran was clear before the media - the politicians who disagreed with the actual investigation were what changed, not the police view of Zimmerman's conduct.

All of this business about the judge dismissing and the jury absolutely not believing the evidence against Zimmerman is straight fantasy - but I'm sure once we have a trial outcome someone will be along to include the jury in the conspiracy, along with the two judges, investigating officers, and DA's.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,570
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #155 on: July 01, 2013, 07:17:29 AM »
Except we don't actually know what he did.
I would not have done what he did.
To summarize: you don't know what he did, but you wouldn't have done it in his shoes?

I would have taken the "good witness" tack UNLESS he was an obvious clear and present threat to someone else.  Him bebopping down the street acting doped up/crazy/weird while there's nobody else around? Not gonna try to antagonize him.
According to him and available evidence that is what he did.  He may well have done more beyond that, but that is just speculation.

For one thing, they should probably have a few more visible patrols.  At the very least, they're showing the flag, and who knows? They might catch one of the bastards in the act.
Failing that, I'm not too sure.
That is pretty typical (around here they call it a PWP or Patrol When Possible).  It really doesn't do much more than make the potential victims feel better as a squad car driving through a neighborhood once a shift doesn't change the story much for criminals. So if the department does that, have they "done their damned jobs"?


Jamis, I recognise that you acknowledge Zimmerman's decision to follow wasn't smart.  The problem is that behaviour which almost everyone would call dumb, if it results in a death, will nearly always put you in jeopardy. Dumb behaviour that results in death is essentially the legal definition of manslaughter.  So if you agree that Zimmerman made a dumb move, that itself is half way to the conviction.
Zimmerman is not being charged with manslaughter and I was under the impression that in Florida the court doesn't have the option to convict of a lesser crime than the defendant is charged with (but I am not certain of that).

Even manslaughter would require us to impeach Zimmerman's account of his actions and rationale without evidence. Nothing that we actually know he did would be something that a reasonable person would expect to lead to violence.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,817
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #156 on: July 01, 2013, 07:25:05 AM »
Cordex, Phyphor has hit on something important here - intervening in a crime in progress is different from chasing someone who isn't doing anything illegal, and who runs to get away from you.  The effort expended to stop the "a holes" who "always get away" (Zimmerman's words - you can see how those tend to refute his story about stopping to check the address) is what got him in hot water.

Depraved heart murder is basically extreme manslaughter, and Zimmerman can be found guilty of manslaughter instead.

Of course Phyphor, it's not just California that would have you in hot water on these facts.  Although being a CA lawyer if any client came to me asking if he could chase people who run from him and then use deadly force if they punched, I'd be inclined to suggest he sell the guns until he was prepared to get counselling for the hero fantasies - not legal advice but the rules allow me to give personal advice as well.

Hero fantasies get gun owners jailed, and the neighbour's kids killed.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #157 on: July 01, 2013, 09:02:41 AM »
Fitz, this is something that needs to be clarified - pursuing charges is never proof of a crime.  It is, however, an indicator that a case is not complete bs when the investigating officer, the DA, and two judges see enough evidence to put the question to a jury.   It just adds to the point when Zimmerman's own defense didn't ask for a dismissal which, if the facts were so clearly missing to support a conviction, would've been an easy win.

The question of guilt is a jury question now.  Based on the facts available, I think it's unrealistic that Zimmerman could present a defense that will refute the case for a conviction.

Jamis, I recognise that you acknowledge Zimmerman's decision to follow wasn't smart.  The problem is that behaviour which almost everyone would call dumb, if it results in a death, will nearly always put you in jeopardy.  Dumb behaviour that results in death is essentially the legal definition of manslaughter.  So if you agree that Zimmerman made a dumb move, that itself is half way to the conviction.

Monkey leg, the investigating officers recommended charging Zimmerman with homicide because he started a confrontation that led to a death.  It's simply not true to say that Zimmemran was clear before the media - the politicians who disagreed with the actual investigation were what changed, not the police view of Zimmerman's conduct.

All of this business about the judge dismissing and the jury absolutely not believing the evidence against Zimmerman is straight fantasy - but I'm sure once we have a trial outcome someone will be along to include the jury in the conspiracy, along with the two judges, investigating officers, and DA's.

Where we diverge, rapidly, is that I don't consider Martin's actions of assaulting Zimmerman  (if the facts are as presented by Zimmerman) to be a reasonable response to being followed.  If Martin ran and Zimmeran ran to follow still, I still don't find the response of assaulting Zimmerman reasonable.  It is only reasonable if A)Zimmerman put his hands on Martin, or B) if he tried to corner or otherwise detain Martin. 
You apparently do.
I would find Zimmerman more guilty of causing Martin harm if lets say he chased him and Martin ran in the street and got hit by a bus. 
No, the action of assaulting someone who is following you is not reasonable and no amount of doublespeak will make it so.

Zimmerman leaving the car meant he gave up a sound tactical position and put the possibility of becoming in physical contact with an unknown person in the wind. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,570
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #158 on: July 01, 2013, 09:24:50 AM »
De Selby,
If a woman wears a low-cut shirt and walks through certain parts of town after dark, it's not at all illegal but it is dumb.  If someone tries to rape her and she kills them, is that manslaughter because she was doing something inadvisable?
Cordex, Phyphor has hit on something important here - intervening in a crime in progress is different from chasing someone who isn't doing anything illegal, and who runs to get away from you.  The effort expended to stop the "a holes" who "always get away" (Zimmerman's words - you can see how those tend to refute his story about stopping to check the address) is what got him in hot water.
Expressing frustration at the inability of police to catch "these a holes" from getting away does not mean he tried to tackle Martin himself.  Like any speculation, you might be dead-on, but then again you might not be.  From his call to police, it doesn't sound like he gets out of the car until after the dispatcher asks Zimmerman where Martin is running and indeed that is what he claims in his reenactment.  Regardless of his true motives for getting out of the car, even intentionally following from a distance and reporting what you see to the police is still not illegal, nor is it something that one would reasonably expect should lead to violence.
Depraved heart murder is basically extreme manslaughter, and Zimmerman can be found guilty of manslaughter instead.
I'll defer to you on that.
Hero fantasies get gun owners jailed, and the neighbour's kids killed.
Agreed.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #159 on: July 01, 2013, 09:45:58 AM »
All any of this Monday morning quarterbacking and prosecution of civic-minded folks gets us is a less-involved citizenry.  Slap folk about enough for trying to keep up the neighborhood and pretty soon folk don't keep up the neighborhood.  Eventually you end up with East MF-ing St Louis.

We are ruled by amoral, psychopathic lawyers.  On both sides of the bench.  And in the legislatures. And their mindset is soaking into our culture like a poison.  (Or, maybe we are lucky and it is like a cancer, something that can be cut out, irradiated, or killed with heavy doses of chemo.)

This.  It's almost like our dear leaders want more crime and societal degeneration  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #160 on: July 01, 2013, 09:53:30 AM »
. . .  the investigating officers recommended charging Zimmerman with homicide because he started a confrontation that led to a death . . .
When I think "confrontation" I think two men, face to face, exchanging harsh words, which MAY lead to a physical altercation. There's no evidence that Zimmerman actually started such a confrontation; perhaps by his presence he made sucn a confrontation possible, but unless one has evidence of what happened between the end of the 911 call and the eyewitness account of Martin atop Zimmerman administering a beating, asserting that Zimmerman started the confrontation is based on supposition, inference, and wishful thinking.

Now, if a credible witness or previously-undisclosed security cam footage surfaces showing Zimmerman laid hands on Martin first  . . . then he's toast. But based on the evidence discussed in the media to date, there's LOTS of reasonable doubt here.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #161 on: July 01, 2013, 10:08:10 AM »
When I think "confrontation" I think two men, face to face, exchanging harsh words, which MAY lead to a physical altercation. There's no evidence that Zimmerman actually started such a confrontation; perhaps by his presence he made sucn a confrontation possible, but unless one has evidence of what happened between the end of the 911 call and the eyewitness account of Martin atop Zimmerman administering a beating, asserting that Zimmerman started the confrontation is based on supposition, inference, and wishful thinking.

Now, if a credible witness or previously-undisclosed security cam footage surfaces showing Zimmerman laid hands on Martin first  . . . then he's toast. But based on the evidence discussed in the media to date, there's LOTS of reasonable doubt here.

In a civilized society there is no need for physical force over words, unless the words are a threat.  Threat of detention being one of those.  "You can't leave till the cops get here!" Watch me, I ain't dun nuttin wrong white boy!
Call me names.  Insult my heritage.  I don't really care. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Phyphor

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,327
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #162 on: July 01, 2013, 10:54:44 AM »
To summarize: you don't know what he did, but you wouldn't have done it in his shoes?


As in, I would not have gotten out of my vehicle and done anything that looked like pursuit.
"You know what's messed-up about taxes?
You don't even pay taxes. They take tax.
You get your check, money gone.
That ain't a payment, that's a jack." - Chris Rock "Bigger and Blacker"
He slapped his rifle. "This is one of the best arguments for peace there is. Nobody wants to shoot if somebody is going to shoot back. " Callaghen, Callaghen, Louis La'mour

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,570
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #163 on: July 01, 2013, 10:55:21 AM »
As in, I would not have gotten out of my vehicle and done anything that looked like pursuit.
Fair enough.  I agree with that.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #164 on: July 01, 2013, 11:05:04 AM »
I think that one point has been lost in this discussion...a self-defense claim is an admission to a criminal act.  To assert self-defense, you must first admit that the criminal act of Felonious Assault/Homicide (Ohio terms) occurred.  Where self-defense comes into play is as a justification for that criminal act.  To prevail, the shooter has to establish that he had done nothing to create the situation, that he reasonably believed that he was in danger of serious physical hamr/death, and in some jurisdictions you still have to establish that you had no means of escape/your back was to the wall.  The State doesn't have to disprove these to convict, the shooter must prove them to establish self-defense and avoid the conviction. What DeSelby and I have been trying to point out is that Zimmerman has to prove that he was at no fault in creating this situation.  Personally, I don't know what the evidence is on this issue.  I've paid cursory attention to the case of late, because I'm busy with my kids and work.  But I do know that the jury is going to hear evidence on that issue.  Why did he leave the car?  Why did he walk between houses?  And the jury will be deciding if his actions caused the situation in which he had to resort to the use of deadly force.

And, again, this is the lesson in all of this.  And, honestly, I don't understand what all the fighting is about on this issue.  No one on this board would advise someone to leave their vehicle, and walk after an unknown subject if you suspect criminal activity.  It's tactically dumb.  

A question, sincere, because I'm not following the case closely...what did Zimmerman observe Martin do that led him to believe he was up to no good?  My understanding was that he saw Martin duck in between houses in the neighborhood.  Was there something more?
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,570
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #165 on: July 01, 2013, 11:56:48 AM »
Why did he leave the car? Why did he walk between houses?
We'll never know for certain.  All we have are Zimmerman's claims.  Here's Zimmerman walking through what he says happened during that time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=X_2NeMrGCvg#t=381s

And, again, this is the lesson in all of this.  And, honestly, I don't understand what all the fighting is about on this issue.  No one on this board would advise someone to leave their vehicle, and walk after an unknown subject if you suspect criminal activity.  It's tactically dumb.  
Totally agree.  The question for me is whether doing something tactically dumb (like a woman with a low-cut shirt walking around a bad part of town late at night) removes the right to self-defense.

A question, sincere, because I'm not following the case closely...what did Zimmerman observe Martin do that led him to believe he was up to no good?  My understanding was that he saw Martin duck in between houses in the neighborhood.  Was there something more?
He claims he saw Martin standing around in the rain, looking around houses suspiciously and moving as though he were on drugs, whatever that means.  That's why he called the police.  Then he claims Martin walked around his truck with his hand in his waistband giving him the evil eye, then walked off and cut between houses.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,564
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2013, 01:09:07 PM »
. . . He claims he saw Martin standing around in the rain, looking around houses suspiciously and moving as though he were on drugs, whatever that means.  That's why he called the police.  Then he claims Martin walked around his truck with his hand in his waistband giving him the evil eye, then walked off and cut between houses.
As it turned out Martin was there because he'd been suspended from school for a minor drug offense, and I believe the tox screen from the autopsy found drugs in his system . . . so it would seem Zimmerman's observations had a basis in fact.

IANAL, but here's a question for the legal eagles: I've read that the prosecution (and Martin's family) didn't want the tox screen results showing Martin was a druggie admitted into evidence; I don't know if the judge ruled on this. However, if the prosecution introduces the 911 call of Zimmerman saying it looked as if the suspicious guy were on drugs, can the defense get the tox screen admitted in order to explore an issue - the appearance of being on drugs - introduced by the prosecution?
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2013, 01:34:39 PM »
As it turned out Martin was there because he'd been suspended from school for a minor drug offense, and I believe the tox screen from the autopsy found drugs in his system . . . so it would seem Zimmerman's observations had a basis in fact.

IANAL, but here's a question for the legal eagles: I've read that the prosecution (and Martin's family) didn't want the tox screen results showing Martin was a druggie admitted into evidence; I don't know if the judge ruled on this. However, if the prosecution introduces the 911 call of Zimmerman saying it looked as if the suspicious guy were on drugs, can the defense get the tox screen admitted in order to explore an issue - the appearance of being on drugs - introduced by the prosecution?

Doubtful, unless there is some way to tie the results of the tests to some type of aggressive/violent behavior.  If it's just marihuana, it won't come in.  Since the relevant questions to self defense are based upon an objective standard, what a reasonable person would believe/do in Zimmerman's position, then it's not very probative since those results weren't learned of until after the autopsy.  Can't add information after the shooting occurred.  It's what was known/believed at the time.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2013, 02:06:42 PM »
Doubtful, unless there is some way to tie the results of the tests to some type of aggressive/violent behavior.  If it's just marihuana, it won't come in.  Since the relevant questions to self defense are based upon an objective standard, what a reasonable person would believe/do in Zimmerman's position, then it's not very probative since those results weren't learned of until after the autopsy.  Can't add information after the shooting occurred.  It's what was known/believed at the time.

Yeah, unless you're a cop.  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2013, 03:15:02 PM »
OK, I'm slightly confused but...

Either Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman attacked Martin.
Zimmerman claims self defense, which Chris says is an admission of guilt and to have reasonable justification, Zimmerman must proove he was at no fault.

But, if Martin turned around and threw the first punch, doesn't that negate Zimmermans fault completly?
Why wouldn't/shouldn't this come down to who made the first physical contact?

???

Since Zimmerman was following or harrassing Martin, and Martin had gotten out of sight and away, Martin could have/should have called the authorities to deal with Zimmerman. Which makes Martin as much at fault for the situation as Zimmerman. Doesn't it?
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2013, 03:50:41 PM »
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #171 on: July 01, 2013, 08:49:05 PM »
I swear, folks, I am not making this up. 

Zimmerman Trial Day 6 – Analysis & Video – State’s witness Chris Serino seriously undermines charge

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/zimmerman-trial-day-6-analysis-video-serino-testimony-challenges-very-foundation-of-states-charge/

Chris Serino, Investigator, Sanford Police Department

I don't think I can do it justice.  Mash the link and read, it is not too long.  If you were wondering, "Why didn;t they charge GZ earlier and only later under pressure?"  Your answer is there.

Quote
On the stand was Chris Serino, who was the lead investigator for the Sanford Police Department on the Trayyvon Martin shooting. Defense counsel Mark O’Mara led cross-examination with his usual consummate skill, obtaining responses from this witness–remember, the State’s witness–that all but completely guts the State’s charge in this case.

Quote
O’Mara noted that Serino was leading an investigative team, gathering and sharing evidence ,that included all levels of the Sanford Police Department up to the Chief, and even members of the 18 Circuit State Prosector’s office. Asked if there was ANYTHING that Zimmerman had said that contradicted the wealth of evidence possessed by Serino, the Investigator answered, “No, sir.” No physical evidence, no witness evidence, no officer statements, nothing? “No, sir.”

Quote
Serino noted that in this particular case he was under quite a lot of external pressure to move the case forward.

Quote
At one point Serino was pressured to initiate a “challenge meeting” with Zimmerman, in which he would try to goad Zimmerman to making substantive changes to his testimony or to admit to a substantive omission from his prior testimony.

Quote
The trouble, Serino recounted, is that he could really do an effective “challenge meeting” for the simple reason that “I just didn’t have much to challenge him WITH.” In this case, O’Mara asked, you didn’t have much to hit him with? “No sir,” answered Serino, “I did not.”

Quote
Nevertheless, the “challenge meeting” was held. In the absence of any real contrary evidence with which to challenge Serino, the Investigator pretended to have some ready to spring. They had discovered, he said, video footage of the events that evening. “And what did Zimmerman say when you told him that?” “He said, Thank God,” Serino answered.

Quote
O’Mara asked him:

“Do YOU think George Zimmerman was telling you the truth?”

Serino succinct answer: “Yes.”

IOW, there was no evidence contradicting GZ, GZ was believed by the cops, and GZ appeared relieved and grateful that a video of the incident existed. [Note: video was a ruse by cops to shake GZ's story, if GZ were making his story up.  Video did not actually exist.]


Side Note: Pressure
http://lawofselfdefense.com/zimmerman-trial-evidentiary-flashback-investigator-serino-tells-fbi-he-was-pressured-to-bring-charges/

Quote
One thing we know for certain, although it’s been little reported in the mainstream media, is the Investigator was receiving considerable pressure from within his own department to bring charges against Zimmerman, charges Serino believed were unwarranted (or he would have recommended them).

How do we know this? The Federal Bureau of Investigation told us. From the March 3, 2012 investigative report produced by Special Agent Elizabeth C. Alexander and Special Agent Matthew R. Oliver, we learn the following:

Quote
Serino is concerned that many of the leaks in this case are coming from within the Sanford Police Department. He listed Sergeant AUTHOR BARNS, REBECCA VILLENOVA (phonetic), AND TREKELL PERKINS as all pressuring him to file charges against ZIMMERMAN after the incident. Serino did not believe he had enough evidence at the time to file charges.











Zimmerman Update Exclusive — Mid-Day 6 — Zimmerman recounts fight for his life (recording)

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/zimmerman-update-exclusive-mid-day-6-zimmerman-recounts-fight-for-his-life-recording/

Dr. Hirotaka Nakasone, FBI Expert, Speech Identification and Speaker Identification

Essentially makes the point that the audio of the man screaming was not good enough to make any determination.

Police Officer Doris Singeleton, Sanford Police Department

BDLR does his best to get DS to minimize GZ's injuries and talks around the homeowner assoc clubhouse CCTV video.

Quote
Next BDLR played the recorded interview that Singleton conducted with Zimmerman the very night of the attack. It can only be described as a chilling recounting of a man in the fight for his life. Truly terrifying. I simply can’t see how playing that recording could have advanced one iota the State’s theory of the case that Zimmerman committed second degree murder, or any other crime that would not be justified as lawful self-defense.




Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,817
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #172 on: July 01, 2013, 09:12:55 PM »
Roo ster, that blog is cheerleading, not analysis.  This is the same guy who thought the 3 hour, knock knock joke defense opening statement just smashed the case.....uhhh, yeah. 

The hyping of trial moments in this case greatly exceeds anything I've seen; maybe Scott Peterson's trial was the only thing close I'm aware of.  There'd be a press release exclaiming that this or that expert was definitively shot down by the defense....they continued right up until the releases read "no way state will keep his death penalty conviction on appeal!"

I suspect the conspiracy will be bigger in a couple of weeks time, its supporters baffled at the outcome for Zimmerman and seeing nothing but corruption to explain it.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,184
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #173 on: July 01, 2013, 09:16:13 PM »
Yeah, the blog has a pre-determined outcome. But what of the video? That's the professional charged with finding evidence of Zimmerman's crime.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,817
Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #174 on: July 01, 2013, 09:50:51 PM »
Yeah, the blog has a pre-determined outcome. But what of the video? That's the professional charged with finding evidence of Zimmerman's crime.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The same guy who didn't speak to the person Trayvon Martin was on the phone with at the time of the crime?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."