Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 219250 times)

cordex

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #175 on: July 01, 2013, 10:15:59 PM »
The same guy who didn't speak to the person Trayvon Martin was on the phone with at the time of the crime?
Good question.  Are you talking about the same witness who was deposed while sitting next to the victim's mom on a couch in the victim's home?

French G.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2013, 10:18:10 PM »
The same guy who didn't speak to the person Trayvon Martin was on the phone with at the time of the crime?

Hey look, another question that won't be asked in court since the prosecution probably does not want to weaken their own witness.Well, after cross examine they might want to, but too late.

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De Selby

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #177 on: July 01, 2013, 10:23:26 PM »
Good question.  Are you talking about the same witness who was deposed while sitting next to the victim's mom on a couch in the victim's home?

Yes, that's the person whom the phone company verified was talking to Trayvon when the confrontation started. 

French, the question was already asked of the witness - they'll probably get to it with the police.
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #178 on: July 02, 2013, 07:09:01 AM »
Roo ster, that blog is cheerleading, not analysis.  This is the same guy who thought the 3 hour, knock knock joke defense opening statement just smashed the case.....uhhh, yeah. 

The hyping of trial moments in this case greatly exceeds anything I've seen; maybe Scott Peterson's trial was the only thing close I'm aware of.  There'd be a press release exclaiming that this or that expert was definitively shot down by the defense....they continued right up until the releases read "no way state will keep his death penalty conviction on appeal!"

I suspect the conspiracy will be bigger in a couple of weeks time, its supporters baffled at the outcome for Zimmerman and seeing nothing but corruption to explain it.

I wondered about that very thing.  The bits of video I watched were in accord with the author's text, both as to content and subjective factors.  I have not watched every video, more like 10%, but the author would have to get lucky for me to only have selected video that backed him up.  Still possible the author is misrepresenting the testimony, but the probability is shrinking with each video snippet I watch that supports the author's presentation.

I keep waiting for state witnesses to present data that disproves GZ's story or otherwise shows him guilty of 2nd degree murder. 
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Ron

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #179 on: July 02, 2013, 07:31:58 AM »

I keep waiting for state witnesses to present data that disproves GZ's story or otherwise shows him guilty of 2nd degree murder. 

Ahh, but has Z's defense proved him 100% innocent? It appears the only way he will walk is if he can overcome the presumption of guilt.
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cordex

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #180 on: July 02, 2013, 09:32:39 AM »
Ahh, but has Z's defense proved him 100% innocent? It appears the only way he will walk is if he can overcome the presumption of guilt.
I've listened to a lot of the trial while I've been working and this is a good point.  From what I've seen and heard, the prosecution is at best trying to show that Zimmerman might be guilty - sort of a reasonable doubt of innocence rather than proof of guilt.

Whether or not that leads to a conviction is anyone's guess.

HankB

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #181 on: July 02, 2013, 09:39:36 AM »
I've listened to a lot of the trial while I've been working and this is a good point.  From what I've seen and heard, the prosecution is at best trying to show that Zimmerman might be guilty - sort of a reasonable doubt of innocence rather than proof of guilt.

Whether or not that leads to a conviction is anyone's guess.
Probably depends on whether or not Martin's supporters have contacted the families of the jurors . . .
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Fitz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #182 on: July 02, 2013, 09:49:58 AM »
Yeah... it does seem the best the prosecution is doing at this point is "Look, he MIGHT have committed murder"
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #183 on: July 02, 2013, 11:08:47 AM »
We've all read about not-so-good shootings where the bad guy was injured or died, yet the shooter didn't get charged. I remember one from the Milwaukee area several years back. A convenience store owner was being robbed. When the robber left the store, the owner chased him out of the parking lot and shot the robber when he was on the sidewalk. Clearly not a good shoot, but the DA didn't press charges. It happens all the time. Voters don't like DA's who charge people who shoot criminals.

So far I have not read or heard of any evidence that indicates that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin after being told not to do so, or that Zimmerman was not being beaten. In any other case, Zimmerman would not be charged. He's only been charged because it's a sexy news story, and we even have a president who's hyped it. If Martin was white, we would never have heard of this case, just as if Obama were white, he would never have made it past the Iowa caucuses. Our "post-racial" society has taken five steps backwards since 2008.

griz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #184 on: July 02, 2013, 12:20:21 PM »
I watched some of the trial this morning.  The prosecution was questioning the lead investigator, and asked him if during questioning he had tried to bluff Zimmerman by telling him if he knew that Trevon had videoed the entire encounter.  Z' answered something like "please God I hope he did".  The prosecution brought that up!
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SADShooter

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #185 on: July 02, 2013, 12:32:45 PM »
I watched some of the trial this morning.  The prosecution was questioning the lead investigator, and asked him if during questioning he had tried to bluff Zimmerman by telling him if he knew that Trevon had videoed the entire encounter.  Z' answered something like "please God I hope he did".  The prosecution brought that up!

Doesn't seem the likely reaction of a rage-fueled racist murderer...
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lee n. field

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #186 on: July 02, 2013, 12:46:12 PM »
just as if Obama were white, he would never have made it past the Iowa caucuses.

If 0. were white, he'd have never made it past the Ill-i-noise house.
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cordex

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #187 on: July 02, 2013, 01:19:04 PM »
I watched some of the trial this morning.  The prosecution was questioning the lead investigator, and asked him if during questioning he had tried to bluff Zimmerman by telling him if he knew that Trevon had videoed the entire encounter.  Z' answered something like "please God I hope he did".  The prosecution brought that up!
That was on re-re-re-redirect.  Defense brought that up yesterday.

griz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #188 on: July 02, 2013, 01:44:47 PM »
That was on re-re-re-redirect.  Defense brought that up yesterday.

OK, that makes more sense.  He was trying (without much success) to make it sound as if Zimmerman would have know the questioner was bluffing because Z would have had to have seen the camera.
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makattak

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #189 on: July 02, 2013, 02:35:30 PM »
The same guy who didn't speak to the person Trayvon Martin was on the phone with at the time of the crime?

Regolith, if the facts were so clear, this would've been disposed of by a pre trial hearing.  That the defense didn't even try to do that is instructive - it can only mean they had no chance whatsoever.

The investigating officer, two judges, and several DAs have seen facts supporting a case.  Try this experiment if you think my analysis is off: contact an attorney you trust, and tell them that you're on the neighbourhood watch, and that sometimes you see people wandering the sidewalk in your neighbourhood who run away when you follow them slowly in your car.  Ask this person what would happen if you ran after them and ended up shooting one - see what advice you get back.

Unless, of course, he disagrees with me. Then he's incompetent.

Yes, that's the person whom the phone company verified was talking to Trayvon when the confrontation started. 

French, the question was already asked of the witness - they'll probably get to it with the police.


Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

I wasn't aware the phone company knows the time stamp for the beginning of the confrontation. We know that the phone owned by the young lady was connected to Mr. Martin's at a time that is CLOSE to the time of the confrontation. We don't know, but by her testimony, that she was "talking to Trayvon when the confrontation started."

I've noticed you have a healthy degree of skepticism for an absolute discounting of Mr. Zimmerman's testimony, even though we have no hard evidence to refute it. On the other hand, you accept Ms. Jeantel's testimony as God's own truth.

Thank you for the primer on lawyerly "reasoning".
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T.O.M.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #190 on: July 02, 2013, 04:05:04 PM »
OK, I'm slightly confused but...

Either Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman attacked Martin.
Zimmerman claims self defense, which Chris says is an admission of guilt and to have reasonable justification, Zimmerman must proove he was at no fault.

But, if Martin turned around and threw the first punch, doesn't that negate Zimmermans fault completly?
Why wouldn't/shouldn't this come down to who made the first physical contact?

???

Since Zimmerman was following or harrassing Martin, and Martin had gotten out of sight and away, Martin could have/should have called the authorities to deal with Zimmerman. Which makes Martin as much at fault for the situation as Zimmerman. Doesn't it?

This is the hard part about the law of self-defense...there are the "no brainer" situations, like the mother in Oklahoma who shot the intruder while on the phone with dispatch.  No one questions anything about it.  then there are the problem cases, like the Zimmerman case, where there is a whole lot of grey area, and the facts lie somewhere in the middle.  When the situation started, who was responsible for creating the violent situation, etc. are all facts that the jury must decide.  They may find as you suggested, tyhat Martin started it when he punched and knocked down Zimmerman.  They may find that Zimmerman started it by following Martin.  Time will tell.  This is why the lesson I'm taking from this is "don't follow a suspect away from my car."
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Tallpine

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #191 on: July 02, 2013, 04:10:24 PM »
Quote
This is why the lesson I'm taking from this is "don't follow a suspect away from my car."

Fair enough, but do you have a magic force field protecting you in your car?

Just for an example, last fall I drove down the road to get the license number of somebody road hunting just north of my property line.  What if they took offense and followed me back to my house?  Now I have a problem.

So if I end up shooting somebody in my driveway, was it my fault for just driving by to get a license number  ???
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T.O.M.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #192 on: July 02, 2013, 04:12:46 PM »
Just read an article about the trial...and I guess the day started with the prosecution attacking and attempting to impeach the testimony of the investigator they called yesterday...

I would like to take a moment and bow my head with regret and sorrow as the last shred of respect the public had for the criminal justice system has just passed away.  After OJ (part 1), Casey Anothony, Jody Arias, and all the other "made for TV" trials had taken place, I swear I spent more time saying "that's not what happens in the real world" than anything else when I said what I do for a living.  This clusterf*%^& has now driven a stake right through the heart of it all, killing it dead.  How can we hold the system up as a dignified and respected way of seeking justice when we have prosecutors calling witnesses and then having to attack them because they don't like the testimony.  And, I know, you can impeach your own witnesses if necessary, but since when does a prosecutor have to impeach a lead investigator in the case at trial!

I weep for the system I have spent 18 years working in and trying to defend.  I'd quit and walk out in disgrace, but I still owe on student loans, and I have guns and ammo I want to buy, and maybe I'm respected for the work I do, even if the system sucks.
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T.O.M.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #193 on: July 02, 2013, 04:15:03 PM »
Fair enough, but do you have a magic force field protecting you in your car?

Just for an example, last fall I drove down the road to get the license number of somebody road hunting just north of my property line.  What if they took offense and followed me back to my house?  Now I have a problem.

So if I end up shooting somebody in my driveway, was it my fault for just driving by to get a license number  ???

i think there's a distinction that can be made between your scenario and the trial.  In your scenario, the bad guys have now followed you home, you're on your own property, and it will be clear that they attacked.  My point is that I won't be leaving a position of apparent safety (i.e. inside my car) to follow someone behind or around a building.  Besides making it easier to legally defend if I'm attacked at/in my car, it makes tactical sense.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #194 on: July 02, 2013, 04:32:01 PM »
i think there's a distinction that can be made between your scenario and the trial.  In your scenario, the bad guys have now followed you home, you're on your own property, and it will be clear that they attacked.  My point is that I won't be leaving a position of apparent safety (i.e. inside my car) to follow someone behind or around a building.  Besides making it easier to legally defend if I'm attacked at/in my car, it makes tactical sense.

Can you explain the difference between Tallpine's following a car, and Zimmerman's following Martin? I don't understand how one is defensible, and not the other. Both could be blamed for doing something that led to a confrontation. Are you saying Z would be in the clear, if he had made it to his own yard, before being jumped?
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Tallpine

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #195 on: July 02, 2013, 04:39:06 PM »
Can you explain the difference between Tallpine's following a car, and Zimmerman's following Martin? I don't understand how one is defensible, and not the other.

Yeah, I just suggested one possible outcome.  What if one of them stepped out in front of me and pointed a hunting rifle through my windshield - would I have been justified in ducking down and running him over ???  (how else would you escape - you could still be shot while backing up)

Maybe I should never leave my house/property/bed ?

In real life, they were across the crick gutting the deer.  The FG officer tracked him down some days later.
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CNYCacher

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #196 on: July 02, 2013, 04:43:02 PM »
Zimmerman didn't follow someone around or behind a building. Watch the crime scene walkthrough.

He left the car (Point A) to move to a place (B) where he thought he could see where Martin went (D), then told the police "He's gone." he then continued to a place where he thought he could read a street sign to give a location (C), and while returning to his car (A) was attacked at point (B)

Code: [Select]

          D



    C     B     A

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French G.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #197 on: July 02, 2013, 04:59:40 PM »
Fair enough, but do you have a magic force field protecting you in your car?

Just for an example, last fall I drove down the road to get the license number of somebody road hunting just north of my property line.  What if they took offense and followed me back to my house?  Now I have a problem.

So if I end up shooting somebody in my driveway, was it my fault for just driving by to get a license number  ???

That's one of those scenarios the internet commandos would love since they all know that any shooting beyond single digit X number of yards isn't SD. What if road hunter unloads on you from several hundred yards and you have no retreat line that is obscured from his vision?
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #198 on: July 02, 2013, 05:31:45 PM »
Quote
He's only been charged because it's a sexy news story, and we even have a president who's hyped it. If Martin was white, we would never have heard of this case,...

Truth.

I have been listening to Fox News a lot on the trial and one attorney keeps saying that being beaten in not reason for Z to defend himself with lethal force.  I dissagree.  Of course they challenge the extent of Z's injuries to suggest that he really wasn't as beaten as Z said in his statements. 

My only concern about this trial is that Z went a bit too far in his neighborhood watch duties in terms of pursuit. 
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T.O.M.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #199 on: July 02, 2013, 05:49:50 PM »
This is starting to feel like law school...answer a question and get a variation right back.  ;)

When I was talking about staying with my car, I was saying what I might do if I observed a suspicious person duck behind a building.  Stay with my car and call it in.  If I am doing that, and the suspicious person comes back to confront and/or attacke me, I am in a better tactical position, as I now have cover and a pretty good means of escape.  And I am in a better position legally, because the 911 tape is giing to be a record of the bad guy coming after me.  I doubt any jury is going to conclude a person sitting in a car onthe phone wuth 911 is doing something wrong up front.  They might conclude that in Zimmerman was doing something wrong up front.

Sometimes people ask about the lawm looking for clear yes and no answers.  Those are becoming increasingly rare.

As for someone shooting at me from 100+ yards away with a rifle...I'll be proned out behind anything,  praying.  No way I could  score hits that far away with my EDC piece.
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