Author Topic: George Zimmerman Trial  (Read 219256 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #550 on: July 20, 2013, 12:15:33 PM »
If organizing to better the lives, circumstances, and culture of black men and women is a good & legitimate thing, it is just as good and legitimate to do the same for white men & women(2).  

Given that western culture has been under assault for over a century on the North American continent alone, it is of greater importance, since without the political and cultural innovations generated by whites & europeans since the Magna Carta, all these minorities would still be suffering under their own particular color of despotism.  The vast majority of their brethren still are.


Sure, let's organize the honkeys. But in so doing, there's no reason to make such groups race-centric. Western culture is better for everybody, of every color. There are plenty of good organizations that are pushing the fruit of Western culture, but without having to single out one race or another.



Quote
(2) I also get a whiff of condescension toward minorities from the "It is OK for minorities, but not the majority," crowd.  GHWB called something similar "the soft bigotry of low expectations." When it comes to behavior and legitimacy, I have the same standard for all.


Again, the races may be equal, but their history and present circumstances are not. Don't give me the condescension business. There's nothing condescending about recognizing that certain minorities face certain challenges, and could benefit from racially-based organizations in a way that the unminority do not.

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lupinus

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #551 on: July 20, 2013, 12:42:22 PM »
Sure, let's organize the honkeys. But in so doing, there's no reason to make such groups race-centric. Western culture is better for everybody, of every color. There are plenty of good organizations that are pushing the fruit of Western culture, but without having to single out one race or another.
Why?

Quote
Again, the races may be equal, but their history and present circumstances are not. Don't give me the condescension business. There's nothing condescending about recognizing that certain minorities face certain challenges, and could benefit from racially-based organizations in a way that the unminority do not.
And most of that is due to the exact thing you are saying is fine and dandy, beneficial even. It promotes the "I'm a victim of my skin color" bullscat. And every single one of those race based organizations i can think of promotes being victims of their skin color rather than facing reality. What challenges? Every single black person who wants to get off his ass, work for something, and not act like a  thug from the hood has just as much chance of getting somewhere as anyone else. The only thing holding him back is himself and the race baiters who tell him he's a victim of...something. 

As for "they had a bad history!" I call, quite simply, bull. Look in history and EVERYONES ancestors have been enslaved raped and pillaged and some point. Pull on your big boy panties, pull up your pants along with them, learn to read and be an intelligent human being, get a job and apply yourself, and you'll be fine.

I don't care if your people were enslaved hundreds of years ago or grand daddy was whacked upside the head by the police or sprayed with a water hose at some point. That's got absolutely nothing to do with current reality and the fact that Rayray and Shequena can't get a better job than fry cook at McDonalds because they insist on being lazy idiots, choose to speak some made up bastardized form of the English language, most of the time in some whispered mumbled monotone that no one can hear or understand, and refuse to show up on time without looking like absolute slobs. That's got nothing to do with race, that has to do with culture and blaming your shortcomings on someone else.
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #552 on: July 20, 2013, 01:31:56 PM »
Sure, let's organize the honkeys. But in so doing, there's no reason to make such groups race-centric. Western culture is better for everybody, of every color. There are plenty of good organizations that are pushing the fruit of Western culture, but without having to single out one race or another.

Again, the races may be equal, but their history and present circumstances are not. Don't give me the condescension business. There's nothing condescending about recognizing that certain minorities face certain challenges, and could benefit from racially-based organizations in a way that the unminority do not.



You are getting the "condescension business" because it fits.  You have absorbed the reigning progressive attitude.  In absolute numbers there are as many poor whites as poor blacks who could use an organization to focus their political clout. Denying them such, while allowing others, is exhibiting hostility toward them and their kind. They are no better or worse than black men & women, so why should they be denied the benefits of focused, race-based organization? 

Race-neutral organizations promoting western civilization are grand, but condoning race-conscious organizing for some but not others is a betrayal of those very principles that underlie western civ.

After working at a housing project I no longer take that "historical circumstances" business as an excuse.  I saw families coming into the USA from the bowels of Hell on Earth who didn't speak English (and had zero local family & ethnic ties) make visible improvements to their circumstances in as little as three months.  Their history was prostrate oppression at the hands of despots going back to pre-history, spiced up with a recent history of mass slaughter.  A Jim Crow-like regime would have been an occasion for joyous celebration.  Yet, they did not call on that as an excuse to rot in place. 

Waving "historical circumstances" around is just an attempt to avoid thinking clearly on these issues.  Crisp thought can make one feel uncomfortable, as it challenges current progressive orthodoxy, and might make your more conformist acquaintances uncomfy, too.

Lupinus made the point that history has, at one point or another, slapped all of us around.  But being the very last to be slapped around, in the world's most prosperous and upwardly-mobile society, is somehow an excuse for cultural degradation?  Any other place in history, such a reaction would occasion the utter destruction of the cultural group by starvation and slaughter.  But, because the majority has provided (those so self-degraded) with sustenance and opportunity, the majority is precluded from looking out for their own interests in an organized fashion?  Baloney.

Perhaps a different tack...

If explicitly white race based organizations are illegitimate, why(1)?  Can you list the objective reasons?  How many of those reasons might apply to explicitly black race-based organizations?  How many and what sort of excuses must be made to square that circle? 

OK, here's one, just to get the ball rolling:
1.  All such race-based organizations are nothing more than in-groups seeking to wrest via political pressure what they can not capture via legitimate means.
2.  ...


[If you are getting the feeling that I am not really so hot for race-based organizations in general, you might be right.  But, if we are going to legitimize them for one race, we ought to legitimize them for all races.  If this is to be a country ruled by men and not by law, it is foolish to unilaterally stay disorganized, as the reigning ethos will be "take what you can, as much as you can, while you still can."]


(1) I am willing to entertain reasons, but I would then be a right SOB and apply them to all such organizations. 

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Fitz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #553 on: July 20, 2013, 02:06:30 PM »
You are getting the "condescension business" because it fits.  You have absorbed the reigning progressive attitude.  In absolute numbers there are as many poor whites as poor blacks who could use an organization to focus their political clout. Denying them such, while allowing others, is exhibiting hostility toward them and their kind. They are no better or worse than black men & women, so why should they be denied the benefits of focused, race-based organization? 

Race-neutral organizations promoting western civilization are grand, but condoning race-conscious organizing for some but not others is a betrayal of those very principles that underlie western civ.

After working at a housing project I no longer take that "historical circumstances" business as an excuse.  I saw families coming into the USA from the bowels of Hell on Earth who didn't speak English (and had zero local family & ethnic ties) make visible improvements to their circumstances in as little as three months.  Their history was prostrate oppression at the hands of despots going back to pre-history, spiced up with a recent history of mass slaughter.  A Jim Crow-like regime would have been an occasion for joyous celebration.  Yet, they did not call on that as an excuse to rot in place.

Waving "historical circumstances" around is just an attempt to avoid thinking clearly on these issues.  Crisp thought can make one feel uncomfortable, as it challenges current progressive orthodoxy, and might make your more conformist acquaintances uncomfy, too.

Lupinus made the point that history has, at one point or another, slapped all of us around.  But being the very last to be slapped around, in the world's most prosperous and upwardly-mobile society, is somehow an excuse for cultural degradation?  Any other place in history, such a reaction would occasion the utter destruction of the cultural group by starvation and slaughter.  But, because the majority has provided (those so self-degraded) with sustenance and opportunity, the majority is precluded from looking out for their own interests in an organized fashion?  Baloney.

Perhaps a different tack...

If explicitly white race based organizations are illegitimate, why(1)?  Can you list the objective reasons?  How many of those reasons might apply to explicitly black race-based organizations?  How many and what sort of excuses must be made to square that circle? 

OK, here's one, just to get the ball rolling:
1.  All such race-based organizations are nothing more than in-groups seeking to wrest via political pressure what they can not capture via legitimate means.
2.  ...


[If you are getting the feeling that I am not really so hot for race-based organizations in general, you might be right.  But, if we are going to legitimize them for one race, we ought to legitimize them for all races.  If this is to be a country ruled by men and not by law, it is foolish to unilaterally stay disorganized, as the reigning ethos will be "take what you can, as much as you can, while you still can."]


(1) I am willing to entertain reasons, but I would then be a right SOB and apply them to all such organizations.

Well said
Fitz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #554 on: July 20, 2013, 03:33:22 PM »
A white eurocentric organization that promotes western culture would actually be silly as western idealism recognizes that all people have the possibility to hold an equal stake in society. race centric organizations like naacp, la raza , mecha,aryan nation and others all have a reason to exist and all are based on communist/socialist ideologies which are the antithesis of western society.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #555 on: July 20, 2013, 04:41:16 PM »
Education and a willingness to work is the key.  Some of the US minority groups fall short on Education because of many reasons.  The orientals as a group seem to do very well.  But central to this are PARENTS (yes, plural) that care about raising their children properly.  It is still possible to overcome potential deficiencies that home life does not provide, but that takes a personal willingness to learn and work work work!
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #556 on: July 20, 2013, 05:49:05 PM »
Quote
Rayray and Shequena can't get a better job than fry cook at McDonalds

Actually that would be a great step upward for most of them  ;/
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #557 on: July 20, 2013, 06:03:37 PM »
I think most of what is interpreted as racism towards blacks, is actually distaste towards what is typically a collectivist effort to get something "free as in beer" rather than "free as in liberty."

Show me a black guy just working towards improving his lot in life just like I am, and I'll like him fine.

Show me a group of a hundred people, with 30 or so blacks in it who believe in whatever the group as a whole is working towards, and I'll respect them fine as long as when you peel back the group and examine the issue, the issue better damned well be something that people of all colors are bettered by.

But when you put a group of X number blacks, all blacks, together, the issue strays from freedom and often moves to the planks of the FSA.  Especially if the NAACP or Democrats get involved in it.

And the same distaste is evident towards MeCHA, AZTLAN, La Raza, etc.  But you don't see that same movement evident in Asian immigrants, and therefore they assimilate better into US society.
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lupinus

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #558 on: July 20, 2013, 09:04:57 PM »
Actually that would be a great step upward for most of them  ;/
I was giving them the benefit of the doubt
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #559 on: July 20, 2013, 09:34:51 PM »
The media just can't let up. From Ben's link about Ms. Jeantel accepting the college offer (referring here to Zimmerman's attorneys):

Quote
Meanwhile, lawyer Don West — who aggressively questioned Jeantel — and his colleague Mark O’Mara celebrated their victory on behalf of George Zimmerman in the case, dining at a swanky New York restaurant.

The legal team ate Wednesday at Nello, the Madison Ave. eatery, where main courses start at $40.

They HAVE to be joking (or figuring that the majority of readers across the country have never been to NYC). $40 as the price of the entree at a restaurant in NYC is nothing. In fact, it doesn't even have to be NYC. I don't live anywhere near NYC. My wife, daughter and I just came back from dinner at a diner. A DINER! Entrees started at $15 and most were over $20. I'm supposed to think that a $40 entree on Madison Avenue in NYC is expensive?

Sorry -- that's a non-starter.
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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #560 on: July 20, 2013, 09:49:09 PM »
Yeah most steak places or Red Lobster the average price is $20-$30  ;/
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #561 on: July 20, 2013, 09:51:38 PM »


Hmmm. That's odd. I don't think you guys have ever objected to JFPO before.  ???


And every single one of those race based organizations i can think of promotes being victims of their skin color rather than facing reality.


How shocking that people only know the racially-based organizations the media promotes. I'm just stunned that you've never heard of Project 21, Republicans for Black Empowerment, The John Langston Forum, the National Black Republican Association, the Tenth Cavalry Gun Club, or B.O.N.D..


Quote
What challenges? Every single black person who wants to get off his ass, work for something, and not act like a  thug from the hood has just as much chance of getting somewhere as anyone else. The only thing holding him back is himself and the race baiters who tell him he's a victim of...something. 

As for "they had a bad history!" I call, quite simply, bull. Look in history and EVERYONES ancestors have been enslaved raped and pillaged and some point. Pull on your big boy panties, pull up your pants along with them, learn to read and be an intelligent human being, get a job and apply yourself, and you'll be fine.

I don't care if your people were enslaved hundreds of years ago or grand daddy was whacked upside the head by the police or sprayed with a water hose at some point. That's got absolutely nothing to do with current reality and the fact that Rayray and Shequena can't get a better job than fry cook at McDonalds because they insist on being lazy idiots, choose to speak some made up bastardized form of the English language, most of the time in some whispered mumbled monotone that no one can hear or understand, and refuse to show up on time without looking like absolute slobs. That's got nothing to do with race, that has to do with culture and blaming your shortcomings on someone else.


Well, looky there; you have answered your own question. I'm unaware of anyone telling white people that speaking good English and dressing for success in the job market is a betrayal of their race. Like I told Hawkmoon, you point out problems specific to black Americans, then you're offended that they would form groups to correct those problems. You rightly point out that the problems are in the hearts and minds of black people, but you pretend that cultural problems are not, ya know, problems. Cultural problems don't just go away. They are real problems that have to be countered.
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zxcvbob

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #562 on: July 20, 2013, 09:59:57 PM »
Quote
Like I told Hawkmoon, you point out problems specific to black Americans, then you're offended that they would form groups to correct those problems. You rightly point out that the problems are in the hearts and minds of black people, but you pretend that cultural problems are not, ya know, problems. Cultural problems don't just go away. They are real problems that have to be countered.

And that's what the NAACP and the Southern Poverty Law Center are doing?  I'll give you United Negro College Fund, but when is the last time you heard anything from them?
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HankB

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #563 on: July 20, 2013, 10:07:37 PM »
George Zimmerman needs to change his name to Ben Ghazi so Obama and his media (ABCNBCCBSMSNBCCNN) never mention him again
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #564 on: July 20, 2013, 10:13:04 PM »
You are getting the "condescension business" because it fits.  You have absorbed the reigning progressive attitude.  In absolute numbers there are as many poor whites as poor blacks who could use an organization to focus their political clout. Denying them such, while allowing others, is exhibiting hostility toward them and their kind. They are no better or worse than black men & women, so why should they be denied the benefits of focused, race-based organization? 


I'm not denying them anything. If there are any benefits to a group focused solely on the majority race, go ahead and start such a group. I just don't think you'll find any benefits.

Also, the distinction I'm making isn't between races, as such, it is between minority groups and majority groups. Again, the races may be equal, but their circumstances are not.


Quote
Race-neutral organizations promoting western civilization are grand, but condoning race-conscious organizing for some but not others is a betrayal of those very principles that underlie western civ.


See above.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #565 on: July 20, 2013, 10:15:04 PM »
And that's what the NAACP and the Southern Poverty Law Center are doing? 

No. Already dealt with that one. See above.
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Re: Re: Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #566 on: July 20, 2013, 10:25:33 PM »
I think most of what is interpreted as racism towards blacks, is actually distaste towards what is typically a collectivist effort to get something "free as in beer" rather than "free as in liberty."

Show me a black guy just working towards improving his lot in life just like I am, and I'll like him fine.

Show me a group of a hundred people, with 30 or so blacks in it who believe in whatever the group as a whole is working towards, and I'll respect them fine as long as when you peel back the group and examine the issue, the issue better damned well be something that people of all colors are bettered by.

But when you put a group of X number blacks, all blacks, together, the issue strays from freedom and often moves to the planks of the FSA.  Especially if the NAACP or Democrats get involved in it.

And the same distaste is evident towards MeCHA, AZTLAN, La Raza, etc.  But you don't see that same movement evident in Asian immigrants, and therefore they assimilate better into US society.

i had to read it twice but i do agree totally

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Hawkmoon

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #567 on: July 20, 2013, 11:36:10 PM »
How shocking that people only know the racially-based organizations the media promotes. I'm just stunned that you've never heard of Project 21, Republicans for Black Empowerment, The John Langston Forum, the National Black Republican Association, the Tenth Cavalry Gun Club, or B.O.N.D..

You are still missing (or avoiding) the issue. So there's a Republicans for Black Empowerment; should there not then also be a Republicans for White Empowerment, and a Republicans for Yellow Empowerment, and a Republicans for Red Empowerment? Oh ... but Republicans for White Empowerment would be racist, wouldn't it?

When is the next meeting of the National White Republican Association? What? There ISN'T a National White Republican Association? Why not? (Because that would be racist, wouldn't it?)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #568 on: July 21, 2013, 12:25:01 AM »
You are still missing (or avoiding) the issue. So there's a Republicans for Black Empowerment; should there not then also be a Republicans for White Empowerment, and a Republicans for Yellow Empowerment, and a Republicans for Red Empowerment? Oh ... but Republicans for White Empowerment would be racist, wouldn't it?

When is the next meeting of the National White Republican Association? What? There ISN'T a National White Republican Association? Why not? (Because that would be racist, wouldn't it?)


Racist, no. Pointless, yes.

And no, I'm not missing or avoiding the issue. I've answered your questions. Go back and read what I've said.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 12:34:49 AM by fistful »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #569 on: July 21, 2013, 12:32:18 AM »
Still looking for that denunciation of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. [scratches head]
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lupinus

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #570 on: July 21, 2013, 08:37:36 AM »
Quote
Well, looky there; you have answered your own question. I'm unaware of anyone telling white people that speaking good English and dressing for success in the job market is a betrayal of their race. Like I told Hawkmoon, you point out problems specific to black Americans, then you're offended that they would form groups to correct those problems. You rightly point out that the problems are in the hearts and minds of black people, but you pretend that cultural problems are not, ya know, problems. Cultural problems don't just go away. They are real problems that have to be countered.
I'm not offended by race based organizations. I'm offended that so many of the "top tier" ones- NAACP, UNCF, BET, etc. basically promote the stereotypical "black lifestyle", that that lifestyle is perfectly OK and has nothing to do with their troubles, that they aren't responsible for themselves because Great Great Great Great Grandpa and Grandma were slaves (oddly, we never seem to hear about it when they were the ones that owned slaves or sold their neighbors into the slave trade...but I digress), that they still aren't responsible because 50 years ago Grandpa was whacked by a baton or sprayed by a water hose, so it of course all has to do with the man! These problems aren't specific to blacks. The problem is specific to culture, a culture that has plenty of Asians, Hispanics, and White people caught up in it too. A white boy walks in looking like a slob with his pants down around his ass speaking the same bastardized english isn't getting any further than his black neighbor just because he is white. Likewise a black guy that shows up on time, speaks reasonably good English, follows instructions, and works hard has just as equal a chance as anyone else.

There is a staggering number of black only organizations; NABHOOD, NABA, NABCJ, BCA, NAMD, NSBE, NBNA to name a few. These are all professional organizations, geared towards business owners and folks with advanced degrees. What special challenges do black nurses with a minimum 2 year, often a 4+ year if they are supervisors, face that they need their own exclusively black organization? How about hotel owners, who obviously have some capital and presumably a lick of sense? Oh, how about the black engineers, do they as black folk have troubles engineering things that their white or asian colleague's don't? I'm not offended they exist. I'm offended that it's somehow celebrated ok OK for one racial group to have them, but that via some twisted logic someone starting the exact organization and replacing the B with a W would instantly be branded racist and run out of town.

Quote
I'm not denying them anything. If there are any benefits to a group focused solely on the majority race, go ahead and start such a group. I just don't think you'll find any benefits.

Also, the distinction I'm making isn't between races, as such, it is between minority groups and majority groups. Again, the races may be equal, but their circumstances are not.
And just about every single one of those circumstances that I can think of are a byproduct of those race based organizations promotion, and ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room that is the real issue.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #571 on: July 21, 2013, 09:45:33 AM »
A white boy walks in looking like a slob with his pants down around his ass speaking the same bastardized english isn't getting any further than his black neighbor just because he is white. Likewise a black guy that shows up on time, speaks reasonably good English, follows instructions, and works hard has just as equal a chance as anyone else.

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #572 on: July 21, 2013, 12:06:45 PM »
Until they both retired, my doctor and my dentist were both black.   My doctor, being Nigerian, had a heavy accent (and when he got excited, you could barely understand him - was hysterical to hang out with him watching a soccer match! :D).  However both were well spoken, well dressed, respectful of others and respected.  We've had some good discussions over the years, and neither ever complained about racism.

I'll agree that yes, racism does still exist in this country.   I would also argue that it's not nearly as prevalent as the race baiters would want us to believe that it is. 


The simple fact is that if you dress and act like a thug, don't get all butt-hurt when you're treated like a thug.


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sumpnz

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #573 on: July 21, 2013, 12:18:59 PM »
Is LadySmith still hanging around here?  Haven't seen anything from her in a while.  If we haven't run her off again it would interesting to get her take on this topic. 

Monkeyleg

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Re: George Zimmerman Trial
« Reply #574 on: July 21, 2013, 12:39:58 PM »
The problem with the ethnic and nationality-based groups, and the separatist attitudes they represent, is that such separatism is counter to the evolution of a successful, cohesive society. A Balkanized country cannot exist for long, as each group will scapegoat the other and use the others for their own gain. E Plurbis Unum becomes Ex Uno Plures ("Out of one, many").

With the hyphenating of identities, groups give their allegiance to the former first and the -American last ("African-American", "Hispanic-American", "Icelandic-American").

I don't believe that historically there's ever been an incohesive society that has survived. Each group eventually has wanted to be an autonomous nation. That appears to be the direction we're headed, both ethnically as well as politically.

The race baiters like Sharpton and Jackson, and the politicians (Obama, for example) who enable them, grow their power and wealth, but they destroy the country in the process.