Author Topic: Improper search  (Read 22771 times)

tokugawa

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2013, 08:29:57 PM »
The interesting thing was how far they pushed it- a freaking colonoscopy can have deadly consequences- the just could not admit they had made a mistake- actually,he was lucky it was done with the Doc's there-other wise they WOULD have "found" some drugs.

 I bet there is something else going on here- I bet this guy was chosen for a reason having nothing at all to do with a traffic stop. The cops had an existing grudge, for some reason and thought this was an extra judicial punishment they could get away with.

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2013, 08:50:29 PM »
Hoo boy.   If what the complaint alleges is true, I'd be pursuing criminal charges against all the medical staff involved.   Assault, sexual assault, kidnapping, the works.  I'd also pursue kidnapping charges against the officers involved, as well as accessory charges to the charges against the medical staff. In addition to all the civil charges.
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Bigjake

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2013, 09:13:10 PM »
Eventually things come back around.

And if he doesn't get a F'ing MASSIVE settlement... Well,  some things are best served cold.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2013, 11:44:57 PM »
This too shall pass.
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BobR

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2013, 11:52:52 PM »
That is all kinds of puckered up!!!


bob

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2013, 11:56:17 PM »
But what everybody seems to have missed so far is that even the medicos, who were acting as agents of the cops when they did the stuff culminating in the hosepipe, are open to 8th Amendment complaints.  Sure the 4th was trampled into the mud.  But wait till a jury gets hold of the 8th Amendment applying.  Those zeroes are going to start multiplying.

 ??? Explain please?  I really don't see how the 8th applies at all.  The 6th, perhaps.

First he needs to go after the hospital.  Criminal and ethics complaints against everyone involved, and the hospital itself.  (The goal should be shut the whole hospital down, and a couple of docs commit suicide -- it's a lofty goal and unlikely to go that far, but you never know unless you try)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 12:01:46 AM by zxcvbob »
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Sindawe

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2013, 12:08:41 AM »
Quote
They ought to be in freaking jail. Every last one of them

An open air jail.

Exposed to the elements and all the hungry creatures that slither, crawl or fly.


But nothing will come of this.  An investigation will find that these "Officers" acted per policy and withing the limits of "The Law".


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Azrael256

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2013, 01:13:00 AM »
I bet there is something else going on here- I bet this guy was chosen for a reason having nothing at all to do with a traffic stop. The cops had an existing grudge, for some reason and thought this was an extra judicial punishment they could get away with.

Read the complaint.  Plaintiff ticked off one of the officers during a stop for an equipment violation a few months before.

Let's assume this is all true.  The medical records will probably be pretty incontrovertible, so it should shake out quickly.

The officers almost don't bother me.  Life imprisonment and be done with them.  Bankrupt them completely, families on the street, whatever.  Devastate the town financially.  Let some other town annex it, or sell it to DoD for artillery practice if the citizens don't handle this with torches and pitchforks.  I'm so sick of every agency on earth bouncing between the rump rapin' rangers (TXDPS and these scumbags) and the respect mah authoritah execution squad (Dallas and Ft. Worth PDs) that I'm almost OK with just tossing them in the can forever for popping a curb in a city vehicle.

But the doctors...  

I'm a real stickler for breaching a sacred trust being an aggravating factor far, far beyond the threat or use of violence, and sacred trust is a few notches above public trust.  These guys put a toe on the first rung of the crimes against humanity ladder by laying evil hands on their victim and performing unnecessary, punitive surgery on him over his objection.  Unethical was the digital and the CT.  Three enemas is getting into the gray area between unethical and torture.  The colonoscopy is inhumane.

(I recognize that not everybody will think of a colonoscopy as a surgery, but the complaint details a surgical consult and general anesthesia.)

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2013, 06:34:06 AM »
If this report can be trusted. The hospital charged the suspect for all procedures and is threatening to take him to collections for non payment.

http://rt.com/usa/hospital-bills-eckert-search-270/

I can't print what I would have done or what I think needs to be done here.
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erictank

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2013, 09:03:11 AM »
??? Explain please?  I really don't see how the 8th applies at all.  The 6th, perhaps.

First he needs to go after the hospital.  Criminal and ethics complaints against everyone involved, and the hospital itself.  (The goal should be shut the whole hospital down, and a couple of docs commit suicide -- it's a lofty goal and unlikely to go that far, but you never know unless you try)

8th Amendment - no cruel and unusual punishment. In what realm is multiple instances of officially-mandated sodomy considered an appropriate punishment for minor league drug smuggling (how much could he ever possibly have been carrying - upwards of a whole POUND, maybe?), even AFTER proven guilty in a court of law? And they did this BEFORE any proof, and AFTER evidence that there was no smuggling was presented (and after the doctors at the first hospital said, "NFW - we're not doing that!"). I'd say "cruel and unusual" applies here, along with quite a bit else.

Charging the victim of that violation of rights for the procedures utilized in that same violation is simply adding insult to (multiple) injury.

cordex

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2013, 10:05:40 AM »
8th Amendment - no cruel and unusual punishment. In what realm is multiple instances of officially-mandated sodomy considered an appropriate punishment for minor league drug smuggling (how much could he ever possibly have been carrying - upwards of a whole POUND, maybe?), even AFTER proven guilty in a court of law? And they did this BEFORE any proof, and AFTER evidence that there was no smuggling was presented (and after the doctors at the first hospital said, "NFW - we're not doing that!"). I'd say "cruel and unusual" applies here, along with quite a bit else.
Let me preface this with "In no way am I defending the actions of officers, doctors or judges involved in this incident as it has been reported."  Just so Balog doesn't get the wrong idea.   ;)

Discomfort and costs incurred incident to a search aren't legally considered punishment, are they?  For example, kicking someone's door in to search their home is unpleasant and unwanted and undesirable and could be costly, but it is done in the course of search not as a punishment handed out by a court for a crime.  I would think to get an 8th Amendment violation to stick it would have to be something handed out as a sentence.

Moreover, since cavity searches (albeit, probably not as enthusiastic as this one) are carried out on a regular basis in jails and prisons - in other words attendant to actual punishment - without legal objection then I think bringing an 8th Amendment case would be extremely difficult.

Tallpine

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2013, 10:44:00 AM »
Quote
kicking someone's door in to search their home is unpleasant and unwanted and undesirable and could be costly, but it is done in the course of search not as a punishment handed out by a court for a crime.  I would think to get an 8th Amendment violation to stick it would have to be something handed out as a sentence.

Ain't that slick thinkin' - just skip the courts entirely and the cops can do whatever they want.   :mad:

Quote
I can't print what I would have done or what I think needs to be done here.


That "extra-judicial" thing can go both ways.  :angel:
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cordex

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2013, 10:52:03 AM »
Ain't that slick thinkin' - just skip the courts entirely and the cops can do whatever they want.   :mad:
Not at all.  The liability may still be there depending on the circumstance, I'm just saying that damage, injury and indignity incident to a search are not the same thing legally as damage, injury and indignity applied as a punishment for a crime.  I was explicitly addressing the 8th Amendment claim.

erictank

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2013, 11:19:07 AM »
Let me preface this with "In no way am I defending the actions of officers, doctors or judges involved in this incident as it has been reported."  Just so Balog doesn't get the wrong idea.   ;)

Discomfort and costs incurred incident to a search aren't legally considered punishment, are they?  For example, kicking someone's door in to search their home is unpleasant and unwanted and undesirable and could be costly, but it is done in the course of search not as a punishment handed out by a court for a crime.  I would think to get an 8th Amendment violation to stick it would have to be something handed out as a sentence.

Moreover, since cavity searches (albeit, probably not as enthusiastic as this one) are carried out on a regular basis in jails and prisons - in other words attendant to actual punishment - without legal objection then I think bringing an 8th Amendment case would be extremely difficult.

2 x-rays, three enemas (in public), two digital exams, and sedation under general anaethesiology (with attendant, admittedly minor, risk of DEATH) for a freaking colonoscopy (where they shove a camera into your colon, rather than the slender enema tube or a doctor's fat finger) - when the first X-ray alone informed the police in this case that there was no reasonable chance he was smuggling drugs in his rectum or intestines, and nearly ALL of it performed outside of the limits of the controlling search warrant. They had all the information they needed to show that their suspicion was completely unfounded - what else COULD this be but punishment for "contempt of cop"? They failed to find any drugs during a previous stop, lied about his "personal habits" to get a warrant to commit official sodomy this time, and went *WAY* over the top when their first, non-invasive search proved their warrantless suspicions to have no basis in fact. I'd think it was at least arguable, myself. The only way it would not be, IMO, is if it is as you suggest restricted solely to sentencing, and I'm not sure if that's the case - they asserted they had the legitimate authority to perform, and did in fact perform over objections, what can only be seen as punitive actions intended to inflict excessive distress on their victim. From http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/color_of_law:

"Excessive force: In making arrests, maintaining order, and defending life, law enforcement officers are allowed to use whatever force is “reasonably” necessary. The breadth and scope of the use of force is vast—from just the physical presence of the officer…to the use of deadly force. Violations of federal law occur when it can be shown that the force used was willfully “unreasonable” or “excessive.”

Sexual assaults by officials acting under color of law can happen in jails, during traffic stops, or in other settings where officials might use their position of authority to coerce an individual into sexual compliance. The compliance is generally gained because of a threat of an official action against the person if he or she doesn’t comply.

False arrest and fabrication of evidence: The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right against unreasonable searches or seizures. A law enforcement official using authority provided under the color of law is allowed to stop individuals and, under certain circumstances, to search them and retain their property. ...

Fabricating evidence against or falsely arresting an individual also violates the color of law statute, taking away the person’s rights of due process and unreasonable seizure. In the case of deprivation of property, the color of law statute would be violated by unlawfully obtaining or maintaining a person’s property, which oversteps or misapplies the official’s authority.

The Fourteenth Amendment secures the right to due process; the Eighth Amendment prohibits the use of cruel and unusual punishment. During an arrest or detention, these rights can be violated by the use of force amounting to punishment (summary judgment). The person accused of a crime must be allowed the opportunity to have a trial and should not be subjected to punishment without having been afforded the opportunity of the legal process." {emphasis added}

Regardless of 8th Amendment applicability, a 42USC1983 case seems like a slam-dunk against the county to me.

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3209305.shtml?cat=500#.UnpoOXC-rls has a copy of the actual suit, for those interested. If even a TENTH of the assertions contained therein are true, those officers and doctors need to go away for a LONG time. And Eckert is, IMO, going to be a wealthy man, at the county's expense (and ideally at the expense of the individual offenders, as well). And he needs to not EVER have pay a dime to the hospital over this.

bedlamite

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2013, 02:20:35 PM »
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/05/man-seeks-millions-after-nm-police-force-colonoscopy-in-drug-search

This is nice to hear:

Quote
Officers then transported Eckert to the Gila Regional Medical Center after an emergency room doctor at a Deming, N.M., hospital told them "this is unethical," Kennedy said. The doctor who refused to comply with police is willing to testify if the lawsuit goes to trial, according to Kennedy.

And to think I thought this was absurd years ago. Combine this with Idiocracy, and Mike Judge is beginning to look like a prophet.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2013, 02:41:16 PM »
You know, I think that by the time this whole thing is over, this dude ought to own a hospital.   
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vaskidmark

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2013, 02:42:24 PM »
??? Explain please?  I really don't see how the 8th applies at all.  The 6th, perhaps.

First he needs to go after the hospital.  Criminal and ethics complaints against everyone involved, and the hospital itself.  (The goal should be shut the whole hospital down, and a couple of docs commit suicide -- it's a lofty goal and unlikely to go that far, but you never know unless you try)

8t Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.  Based on case law, "punishment" has come to be understood to be conditions of incarceration as well as specific punitive actions.

Plaintiff was subjected to cruel and uusual treatment as a condition of his arrest/incarceration.  Deliberate indifference cuts both ways - withholding needed treatment is the most common complaint, but subjecting arrestee to unnecessary, dangerous, painful procedures - especially when there are, as noted above, "industry standards" for determining if there is any contraband hidden in the anus/colon/lower intestine that are not invasive and are not inherently dangerous.

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41magsnub

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2013, 02:44:34 PM »
And a pattern emerges...  http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3210356.shtml?cat=500#.UnqbGxBnAy5

Same scenario, same drug dog alerts on the seat of the car.  Cops get a warrant and the guy is violated in the same way at the same medical center, nothing is found.

Scout26

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2013, 02:49:49 PM »
Let the Piling On!!! begin !!


Methinks there's some New Mexico Police officers, District Attorneys and a some doctors that now have their butt cheeks clenched.
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Balog

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2013, 02:56:34 PM »
Just another isolated incident.
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Re: Improper search
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2013, 03:11:37 PM »

Seriously. What were the people involved thinking? Did the doctors not think they'd lose their medical licenses? Why didn't a nurse pick up a phone and call the legal department or administration? While the cops know they have immunity, you would think that as human beings they might consider what they were doing as wrong. Warrantless invasive surgical practices should NOT be the line in the sand they crossed, but it's a fairly blatant one.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2013, 03:14:31 PM »
8t Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.  Based on case law, "punishment" has come to be understood to be conditions of incarceration as well as specific punitive actions.

Plaintiff was subjected to cruel and uusual treatment as a condition of his arrest/incarceration.  Deliberate indifference cuts both ways - withholding needed treatment is the most common complaint, but subjecting arrestee to unnecessary, dangerous, painful procedures - especially when there are, as noted above, "industry standards" for determining if there is any contraband hidden in the anus/colon/lower intestine that are not invasive and are not inherently dangerous.

stay safe.

It says "cruel and unusual punishment", not "cruel and unusual treatment", and it's an easy argument that he wasn't being "punished" because the case hadn't been adjudicated yet.  Why go for a stretch like that when there are so many slam dunks?  (kidnapping, multiple counts of aggravated assault, civil rights violations under color of law, medical malpractice, etc)
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Ryan in Maine

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2013, 03:19:28 PM »
LEO's involved should be fired (barred from any govt and security-related job for life) and imprisoned as long as possible. That ought to be preferable to what I believe their punishment should really be.

All hospital staff should be fired (barred from any govt and health industry-related job for life) and imprisoned for as long as possible.

This is not ok and they should all serve as examples akin to leaving the bodies hanging outside of the city limits.

HankB

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2013, 03:29:43 PM »
Could say a lot, but I'll just boil it down to this: Were someone to face trial for taking the law into their own hands after this kind of mistreatment, I would dearly love to be on the jury.
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erictank

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Re: Improper search
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2013, 03:48:30 PM »
It says "cruel and unusual punishment", not "cruel and unusual treatment", and it's an easy argument that he wasn't being "punished" because the case hadn't been adjudicated yet.  Why go for a stretch like that when there are so many slam dunks?  (kidnapping, multiple counts of aggravated assault, civil rights violations under color of law, medical malpractice, etc)

The FBI states that punishment can be pre-conviction treatment ("summary punishment").