Author Topic: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia  (Read 1791 times)

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,996
  • APS Risk Manager
Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« on: October 06, 2014, 09:21:00 PM »
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/10/junior_smith_and_juvenile_incarceration_in_west_virginia.html

An interesting dilemma: the only way to provide juveniles with the needed mental health and social services is to do so in jail. 
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2014, 09:49:12 PM »
Not just juveniles. I get guys locked up who need to go to rehab. It's the only way without insurance


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2014, 01:39:16 AM »
Thank goodness this was about the problem of providing M/H services in the community.  I read the header and thought some genius had decided it would be cheaper and easier to put them is some set of Quonset huts surrounded by a picket fence and tell the neighbors there is a cash bounty on any they return - no questions asked.  (There is still a bounty on escaped convicts in Virginia, and when they opened up some prisons in the deep hinterlands of coal country nothing was done to discourage the spread of the rumor that it applied dead as well as alive.)

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2014, 07:11:25 AM »
The juvenile iustice system is one of the worst parts of the criminal justice system.  Not necessarily from the court side...many uuvenile systems protect the rights of the accused even better than the adult system.  The realmproblem is the lack of resources available to the system.  Where I work, there arebthree substance abuse facilities for adults.  Kids, need to compete for out-of-county beds.  The situation is worse for mental health treatment.  Sometimes, wending a kid to juvi prison is the only way to get some kind of treatment going.  It becomes really sad when I start to hope a kid commits a felony just so treatment options open up.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 09:34:23 AM »
Around here best shot a Juli has for substance abuse treatment is a private facility somewhere. I know some folks that dropped 60 k on a year for their kid


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2014, 10:20:57 AM »
The juvenile iustice system is one of the worst parts of the criminal justice system.  Not necessarily from the court side...many uuvenile systems protect the rights of the accused even better than the adult system.  The realmproblem is the lack of resources available to the system.  Where I work, there arebthree substance abuse facilities for adults.  Kids, need to compete for out-of-county beds.  The situation is worse for mental health treatment.  Sometimes, wending a kid to juvi prison is the only way to get some kind of treatment going.  It becomes really sad when I start to hope a kid commits a felony just so treatment options open up.

The juvenile side lacks resources. The adult side is a plea bargain machine. And there's also a complete lack of interest in improving either.

PA has 450 juveniles serving life sentences, going as low as 11-13. We had recent court scuffles with the federal courts, and SCOTUS essentially ruled that minors convicted of homicide could not be given mandatory sentences of life without parole. They can still get life sentences without parole, but it's not mandatory anymore. We have 4,134 incarcerated (316 per 100,000) in 2010, up 7 percent from . Crime is dropping, but incarceration is increasing.

It shouldn't be a surprise that a significant percent of those kids being convicted come from environments that are brutal to say the least. Molestation, drug use, etc. Basically, Child Welfare Services should have already yanked these kids out of said environments.

So, after CWS dropped the ball, until recently the judges were selling these kids off to private prisons to line their pockets. The legal system tried damn hard to get said judges off with a slap on the wrist but thankfully that was overturned. So, yea, we have a nice hard pipeline of kids being sent to prison. No one wants to spend the money on alternative programs for kids, but they do for adults (cheaper than prison). Mostly it's kids from ghetto areas (rural areas of Appalachia and mini-Detroit cities like Coatesville or Reading) so no one cares.

If you are middle class or upper class, you can hire a lawyer and get your kid sent to therapy or whatnot by offering to pick up the tab. I know, because my sister was convicted of arson of government property as minor. She actually didn't do anything, but did not actively stop two other girls from committing arson. Which is accessory, which is legally taken as essentially the same crime. She plea bargained out (which was smart) and my folks covered therapy and costs. 

If we had no resources, odds are she would have gone to jail. Because I'm not sure about Ohio, but here you essentially buy your kid's fair sentencing. And hope the judge isn't being bought or otherwise on the take. I'm fairly sure you're in the same boat (minus the being paid bribes to send kids to prison), and not by choice.

Assuming the family aren't scumbags, you're not going to turn down the family paying for a private rehab, therapy, substance abuse, whatever and that'll make a plea bargain smoother with the prosecutors. Smoother means perhaps more generous terms. Those places are however NOT cheap. Half the time they suck anyways, but it's preferable to prison. If the family is poor and can't afford expensive prison dodges, I'm guessing your options are limited to government paid alternative programs with finite capacity or prison. If you have more kids than slots, do you even have a choice NOT to send them to kiddie jail?

I'm not ragging on you, you don't have a choice. I respect the hell out of you for taking an ugly job that I know I couldn't handle. I'd beat someone to death that deserved it without a week.


"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 10:54:36 AM »
I thought those judges plead and got real time? 2o plus years for one iirc.
How'd they try to let em skate? What got overturned?

And the pa courts ruled the court ruling on juvi life isn't retroactive so the lifers are still lifers. And with many of em? Good news . Its sad but i can introduce you to plenty of young ones who we are better off without. As you observe many of em were screwed by the fickle finger of fate but they are unfixable. And letting em out to kill again to make folks feel better is a losing proposition.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 11:04:32 AM »
Just looked they originally plead to a 7 year 2 count deal. And then one ran his mouth judge rejected plea deal. They ended up with 17 and 28. One plead out the other went to trial.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 11:09:27 AM »
Oh my. I found this in the looking
It describes the events leading up to one kids appearance in that court through his career up to his suicide at 23

http://citizensvoice.com/news/father-of-suicidal-man-in-kids-for-cash-case-i-basically-framed-him-1.1109065




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2014, 11:15:23 AM »
"Crime is dropping, but incarceration is increasing."

Fox Butterfield, is that you?

==============

But, yeah, if you have any money you can usually buy your kids better legal outcomes. 
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2014, 11:17:17 AM »
Oh my. I found this in the looking
It describes the events leading up to one kids appearance in that court through his career up to his suicide at 23

http://citizensvoice.com/news/father-of-suicidal-man-in-kids-for-cash-case-i-basically-framed-him-1.1109065

If I have learned one thing, it is that deliberately getting gov't (and especially LEOs) involved with your family is the wrong answer.  Doesn't really matter what the question is.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2014, 11:21:03 AM »
@Rev...didn't take it as an attack on me.  We're both just singing the blues about the problem.  If I was on the take, do you think I'd spend my time with plebes the likes of you all?   :P

Ohio is similar, with one notable distinction.  The Supreme Court started a new process for appointed attorneys in juvenile case.  In the past, it was a simple yes or no for appointed counsel, depending on family income.  Now, if the juvenile wants a lawyer, the lawyer is appointed, the family completes an application, and the bill for counsel is based on family income and the type of case, ranging from no cost through $500.  The State pays the attorneys $35 an hour, and picks up the difference between the recoupment amount and the attorney's actual bill.  So, many more kids are represented, which is a good thing.  


No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2014, 11:23:45 AM »
@roo_ster, I truly wish a lot more people took your advice and kept me out of their family business.  Way too many "parents" file charges on their kids for staying out past curfew, looking at porno on the internet, etc.  They want me to be the bad guy.  Only part of my job worse than that is the custody fight between two parents who cannot get along, even for the sake of their kids.  Damn it, you don't have to like each other, but at least stop calling each other names with the kids present.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2014, 11:28:50 AM »
Folks bail on being a parent then when shtf want the state to fix it. Or at least get junior outa their house.
Then bad mouth the state


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2014, 12:03:39 PM »
If I have learned one thing, it is that deliberately getting gov't (and especially LEOs) involved with your family is the wrong answer.  Doesn't really matter what the question is.

To quote one of the LEO's on arfcom, never invite the man into your life.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2014, 12:47:32 PM »
I thought those judges plead and got real time? 2o plus years for one iirc.
How'd they try to let em skate? What got overturned?

And the pa courts ruled the court ruling on juvi life isn't retroactive so the lifers are still lifers. And with many of em? Good news . Its sad but i can introduce you to plenty of young ones who we are better off without. As you observe many of em were screwed by the fickle finger of fate but they are unfixable. And letting em out to kill again to make folks feel better is a losing proposition.
Just looked they originally plead to a 7 year 2 count deal. And then one ran his mouth judge rejected plea deal. They ended up with 17 and 28. One plead out the other went to trial.

Eh, not quite. Some folks in the justice system tried to cut the two judges a sweetheart deal of pleading out to tax evasion and honest service fraud. The public found out about it and flipped their lid. It got voided, the excuse being that the judges mouthed off and didn't sound remorseful. They then faced actual charges rather than the slap on the wrist. They were still given time to hide assets and whatnot.

Yes, I do concur that some (a lot of them) are unable to assimilate into normal life.


"Crime is dropping, but incarceration is increasing."

Fox Butterfield, is that you?

==============

But, yeah, if you have any money you can usually buy your kids better legal outcomes. 

Interestingly, we're both from Lancaster. Good guy, made history for the whole Pentagon Papers thing.

I gather you're referring to "More Inmates, Despite Drop In Crime" headline.   =D

Yeah. I get that normally a drop in crime is often caused by taking criminals and keeping them behind bars. It's not directly applicable for minors, Rooster, as they only have about a 8 year window of opportunity of becoming a repeat offender. Somewhat steady 8 percent of juv offenders commit half of all juvenile offenses, and virtually all that group go on to become repeat offenders as adults.

Give or take, the 90% are not career criminals. They're caught with alcohol or drugs, or doing stupid kid stuff. Lengthy prison sentences are also unlikely to positively impact juvenile offender statistics. Increasing the incarceration rate of that 90% hasn't shown to reduce crime. Often, the opposite.

Statistically, you're significantly better off giving kids two shots to screw up, and then throw the book at them HARD the third time.
And that's what most of the country is doing, btw. PA however is going insane on kids on their first offenses. 9 out of 10 times, that's a bad idea.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2014, 12:57:58 PM »
Some juveniles do deserve a chance, and do well when given a chance...

http://www.dispatch.com//content/stories/editorials/2012/04/24/just-punishment.html

She's in college now.  Dean's List.  Dual major of criminal justice and psychology.  Gotta say, it's one of the better outcomes I've seen.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2014, 01:27:05 PM »
Some juveniles do deserve a chance, and do well when given a chance...

She's in college now.  Dean's List.  Dual major of criminal justice and psychology.  Gotta say, it's one of the better outcomes I've seen.

Some folks would argue it'd be safer to throw her in prison. Screw the individual, damn the torpedoes, and full incarceration ahead!

Mind tossing in your two cents on the stuff I posted? Yes, I know anecdote != data, but I wanted to see if it more or less agreed with what you see and have heard.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 02:41:49 PM by RevDisk »
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2014, 02:09:40 PM »
Rev...

First off, the two judges can burn in the deepest recesses of Hell (or freeze if you prefer Dante's version).  They are the epitome of everything wrong in the justice system.  I hope they suffer for a very long time.

Second, I'd be a fool, naive, or a liar if I disagreed that in juvenile court, money sways the system.  In juvenile, money buys options that aren't as available in the adult system.  Got a kid with a drug problem, buy the kid a bed in a treatment program.  Behavior problems?  Buy a bed in a different program.  With juvenile courts so underfunded, most courts will not stop or interfere with a treatment program paid for by the parents.  So, if junior breaks into homes and steals stuff, then gets caught, parents buy treatment.  Lawyer plea bargains the case.  If junior successfully completes probation, lawyers gets record sealed and expunged.  Junior turns 18 and it's all gone.  To the prosecutor, the kid is facing consequences, so no need to try the case, so plea bargain is an easy out.  For the bench, often times the option taken by the parent is one the court wishes it had available.  And, honestly, I generally will give treatment a chance before resorting to incarceration.

Third, I know in my heart that there are plenty of judges that will see an influential mommy or daddy sitting in court, and give a kid a break because of who mommy or daddy are.  I also know that there are judges who will absolutely hammer a kid for no reason but to look tough on crime.  The editorial I linked to...I caught some flack over it.  As you can tell, the prosecutor was making Columbine and Sandy Hook statements to the press about the girl.  He was seeking an appointment higher up the political food chain.  I saw (with the help of a really good probation officer) a girl going through some really hard times in her life doing something stupid.  It would have been an easy way to get my name in the press, giving the girl the maximum.  I was really surprised to see this editorial come out.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2014, 02:26:59 PM »
The editorial I linked to...I caught some flack over it.

Well, then, stop a-writin' edditoreals and get back to a-majistraighten!

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Locking up juveniles in West Virginia
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2014, 03:44:52 PM »
Some juveniles do deserve a chance, and do well when given a chance...

http://www.dispatch.com//content/stories/editorials/2012/04/24/just-punishment.html

She's in college now.  Dean's List.  Dual major of criminal justice and psychology.  Gotta say, it's one of the better outcomes I've seen.

Kid never hurt anyone. None of the kids doing life can make that claim.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I