Author Topic: Executions by nitrogen gas (Read 12361 times)

lupinus · « **Reply #50 on:** February 12, 2015, 08:29:21 AM »

Quote from: KD5NRH on February 11, 2015, 06:02:30 PM

It would have to be one hell of a check; after 10-20 years in prison, pretty much everything you had before is going to be gone, including plenty of the people you knew. Unless you have a close relative who's willing to store everything, make sure property taxes get paid, etc. you're pretty much going to be out on the street with nothing but that check. Honestly, I'd rather be executed, even if the verdict was wrong. At least then I can face a Judge who has all the facts.

The point is you can be released and you can be released if you're later found to have not done the crime. Death penalties need a higher standard of proof to be handed down.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 12, 2015, 09:05:30 AM »

Quote from: lupinus on February 12, 2015, 08:29:21 AM

The point is you can be released and you can be released if you're later found to have not done the crime. Death penalties need a higher standard of proof to be handed down.

In Texas, they do have a higher standard at least in the form of jury instructions though it isn't "no doubt" which is an impossible standard. I would have thought all states would have some sort of test on applying the death penalty.

Of course, that wouldn't make me feel much better if I was wrongly convicted and given life in prison instead of the death penalty.

RevDisk · « **Reply #52 on:** February 12, 2015, 11:11:03 AM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on February 12, 2015, 09:05:30 AM

In Texas, they do have a higher standard at least in the form of jury instructions though it isn't "no doubt" which is an impossible standard. I would have thought all states would have some sort of test on applying the death penalty.

Of course, that wouldn't make me feel much better if I was wrongly convicted and given life in prison instead of the death penalty.

Texas has a minimum of 12 people out of 500 ish that were sentenced to death that were acquitted, dismissed or pardoned. So, they have a known minimum error rate of 2.5%, or roughly 1 in 40. I'd suspect the actual number of wrongful convictions is higher, but it cannot be specifically proven. But we have a nice statistical floor that every one in forty persons sentenced to death under allegedly higher standards is wrongly convicted. Texas leads the nation in DNA exonerations, apparently.

Again, I'm for the death penalty. I just think the government is too irresponsible to handle it as they have proven with their false positive conviction rate, and the fact that the death penalty is largely a punishment on lacking the assets to hire a real lawyer.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #53 on:** February 12, 2015, 11:49:20 AM »

I also favor capital punishment
But there is this
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/connick-v-thompson
25% of capital convictions overturned. And much malfeasance

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Firethorn · « **Reply #54 on:** February 12, 2015, 12:52:28 PM »

You want to know what scares me about the 'bad conviction' standards for capital crimes?

That I figure the rate's the same, if not worse, for all the other convictions about lesser charges. Part of the problem I see is that because they don't receive the attention, they're even more rarely exonerated.

Quite a few people in prison for rapes they didn't do, especially when back in the day 'black' was enough to convict in many jury's eyes.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #55 on:** February 12, 2015, 07:27:27 PM »

Quote from: RevDisk on February 12, 2015, 11:11:03 AM

Texas has a minimum of 12 people out of 500 ish that were sentenced to death that were acquitted, dismissed or pardoned. So, they have a known minimum error rate of 2.5%, or roughly 1 in 40. I'd suspect the actual number of wrongful convictions is higher, but it cannot be specifically proven. But we have a nice statistical floor that every one in forty persons sentenced to death under allegedly higher standards is wrongly convicted. Texas leads the nation in DNA exonerations, apparently.

Again, I'm for the death penalty. I just think the government is too irresponsible to handle it as they have proven with their false positive conviction rate, and the fact that the death penalty is largely a punishment on lacking the assets to hire a real lawyer.

I think we share the same mistrust of government, but in my case, I believe the government is responsible for executing murderers. That is among its duties. A failure to execute the guilty party is a miscarriage of justice. So it's not that I disagree with the sentiment of "better that a thousand guilty men go free..." It's just that I would set the bar at 100, or 50.

RoadKingLarry · « **Reply #56 on:** February 12, 2015, 10:46:14 PM »

I'm strongly in favor of the death penalty but it has to have very strong proof of guilt.
A couple of examples of "proof enough" would be Nidal Hassan and the Aurora theater shooter, not much doubt in either of those cases.

As to wrongful convictions. In my perfect world any member of the prosecution ( or defense) from the judge down to the clerk that was involved in any prosecutorial misconduct such as withholding exculpatory evidence, fabrication of evidence, perjury etc... intended to wrongly convict someone of any crime, would upon conviction suffer the same penalty they did or would have imposed on their intended victim up to and including the death penalty. This would also apply to cops either withholding, loosing or fabricating evidence or committing perjury.
Nifong is one example that comes quickly to mind.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #57 on:** February 12, 2015, 10:53:04 PM »

I like the suffer the same penalty idea
Can we extend it to jailhouse snitches and angry ex spouses who lie too?

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just Warren · « **Reply #58 on:** February 12, 2015, 11:09:18 PM »

How about a choice for the condemned?

The inmate can choose option A which is something incredibly painful or choose option B which is a bowl of applesauce loaded with enough barbiturates to stop an elephant's heart from beating. The prisoner eats the applesauce and just fades out.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #59 on:** February 12, 2015, 11:09:58 PM »

Quote from: Warren on February 12, 2015, 11:09:18 PM

How about a choice for the condemned?

The inmate can choose option A which is something incredibly painful or choose option B which is a bowl of applesauce loaded with enough barbiturates to stop an elephant's heart from beating. The prisoner eats the applesauce and just fades out.

Viking · « **Reply #60 on:** February 13, 2015, 07:24:57 PM »

Wyoming House passed a bill allowing firing squads as a method of execution.
http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/wyoming-house-passes-firing-squads-execution-bill/article_1c77faca-32f5-5f00-8369-34ba66b0572d.html

Utah seems to consider returning to using firing squads:
http://trib.com/news/national/in-close-vote-utah-house-oks-firing-squad-proposal/article_580ea088-63b7-537f-b799-a02ce90c7969.html

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #61 on:** February 13, 2015, 11:34:39 PM »

Quote from: Viking on February 13, 2015, 07:24:57 PM

Wyoming House passed a bill allowing firing squads as a method of execution.
http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/wyoming-house-passes-firing-squads-execution-bill/article_1c77faca-32f5-5f00-8369-34ba66b0572d.html

Utah seems to consider returning to using firing squads:
http://trib.com/news/national/in-close-vote-utah-house-oks-firing-squad-proposal/article_580ea088-63b7-537f-b799-a02ce90c7969.html

But those were ruled out.

Firethorn · « **Reply #62 on:** February 14, 2015, 02:20:03 AM »

Quote from: fistful on February 13, 2015, 11:34:39 PM

But those were ruled out.

Will they pass court muster? That might be the tougher hurdle.

Scout26 · « **Reply #63 on:** February 17, 2015, 03:23:28 PM »

Quote from: RevDisk on February 12, 2015, 11:11:03 AM

Texas has a minimum of 12 people out of 500 ish that were sentenced to death that were acquitted, dismissed or pardoned. So, they have a known minimum error rate of 2.5%, or roughly 1 in 40. I'd suspect the actual number of wrongful convictions is higher, but it cannot be specifically proven. But we have a nice statistical floor that every one in forty persons sentenced to death under allegedly higher standards is wrongly convicted. Texas leads the nation in DNA exonerations, apparently.

Again, I'm for the death penalty. I just think the government is too irresponsible to handle it as they have proven with their false positive conviction rate, and the fact that the death penalty is largely a punishment on lacking the assets to hire a real lawyer.

I agree with this.

Quote from: RoadKingLarry on February 12, 2015, 10:46:14 PM

I'm strongly in favor of the death penalty but it has to have very strong proof of guilt.
A couple of examples of "proof enough" would be Nidal Hassan and the Aurora theater shooter, not much doubt in either of those cases.

As to wrongful convictions. In my perfect world any member of the prosecution ( or defense) from the judge down to the clerk that was involved in any prosecutorial misconduct such as withholding exculpatory evidence, fabrication of evidence, perjury etc... intended to wrongly convict someone of any crime, would upon conviction suffer the same penalty they did or would have imposed on their intended victim up to and including the death penalty. This would also apply to cops either withholding, loosing or fabricating evidence or committing perjury.
Nifong is one example that comes quickly to mind.

And not just for death penalty cases. But all cases. And on cases where the punishment is less then death, then 2x or 3x the maximum sentence. With no chance of parole or reduction for "good time". And it's automatic, no appeal, once proven that you lied or falsified, game over. Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not collect $200.

Again, Pour Encourager les Autres....

MechAg94 · « **Reply #64 on:** February 17, 2015, 06:03:07 PM »

Sounds like everyone is in agreement for the most part.

What I was getting at with Texas was there are questions the jury has to answer to determine whether the convicted is put to death or not (after the guilty/not guilty part). It isn't a Judge making that call. There are also automatic appeals and many of the judges involved in the state are well versed on the issues so the process goes faster than most states.

On the "error rate", IMO that includes some trials overturned for what I would call technicalities as well. Those convictions were not all overturned due to innocence. 99% of the appeals I hear about via news seems like the silliest things and the sole purpose is to delay the execution and make more money for the lawyer. That said, I would agree that unethical prosecutors and lying witnesses should be prosecuted agressively and punished harshly. Punishment for screwing with the Justice System should almost be more harsh than Captial Crimes. Punishing a prosecutor who knowingly convicted innocent people is very serious business.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #65 on:** February 17, 2015, 07:24:13 PM »

Very good point about the difference between a technicality and true innocence. How about we give the jury some skin in the game. If they vote to do capital punishment one of them is selected to throw the switch. My litmus test on capital trials is I ask myself if I am so sure that I would do it myself

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zxcvbob · « **Reply #66 on:** February 17, 2015, 09:41:13 PM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on February 17, 2015, 06:03:07 PM

Sounds like everyone is in agreement for the most part.

What I was getting at with Texas was there are questions the jury has to answer to determine whether the convicted is put to death or not (after the guilty/not guilty part). It isn't a Judge making that call. There are also automatic appeals and many of the judges involved in the state are well versed on the issues so the process goes faster than most states.

On the "error rate", IMO that includes some trials overturned for what I would call technicalities as well. Those convictions were not all overturned due to innocence. 99% of the appeals I hear about via news seems like the silliest things and the sole purpose is to delay the execution and make more money for the lawyer. That said, I would agree that unethical prosecutors and lying witnesses should be prosecuted agressively and punished harshly. Punishment for screwing with the Justice System should almost be more harsh than Captial Crimes. Punishing a prosecutor who knowingly convicted innocent people is very serious business.

I'm generally against the death penalty, because I don't trust the govt to get it right 100% of the time. A prosecutor who knowingly convicts an innocent person is an exception I would make. He should be serve the maximum sentence possible for whatever crime he prosecuted, including the death penalty if that was an option.

Back to the original topic: A face mask and N₂ or an industrial N₂/Ar mixture is a fine way to kill people as humanely as is reasonable. Give them a Valium or something beforehand if they want it. Start out with air, then have a silent valve for the executioner to change it to nitrogen. The condemned doesn't know when it changes, and he'll be out in a few seconds and dead in a minute or so.

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #67 on:** February 18, 2015, 08:22:54 AM »

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 17, 2015, 07:24:13 PM

Very good point about the difference between a technicality and true innocence. How about we give the jury some skin in the game. If they vote to do capital punishment one of them is selected to throw the switch. My litmus test on capital trials is I ask myself if I am so sure that I would do it myself

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I'ts more than just comparing reversals on technicality vs innocence. An innocent man overturning his conviction on appeal is an example of the system working, not of it failing. That's why capital cases require so many appeals. Overturning a conviction on appeal is a good thing.

The correct metric is not how many capital convicts are acquitted on appeal, it's the number who should have been acquitted but weren't. Obviously this is a much more difficult statistic to tabulate. It's rare for a man's innocence to be bothered over after he's dead, and those who do bother rarely do so objectively and authoritatively.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #68 on:** February 18, 2015, 08:48:19 AM »

How about our former governor ? He got DNA evidence back that proved a man was not guilty of a capital rape murder. All he did was commute the sentence to life. We found out when a later gov had DNA run and commuted his sentence . They used the same lab and the lab noted the results were the same as the last test. The test the governor concealed

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MechAg94 · « **Reply #69 on:** February 18, 2015, 09:06:14 AM »

Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner on February 18, 2015, 08:22:54 AM

I'ts more than just comparing reversals on technicality vs innocence. An innocent man overturning his conviction on appeal is an example of the system working, not of it failing. That's why capital cases require so many appeals. Overturning a conviction on appeal is a good thing.

The correct metric is not how many capital convicts are acquitted on appeal, it's the number who should have been acquitted but weren't. Obviously this is a much more difficult statistic to tabulate. It's rare for a man's innocence to be bothered over after he's dead, and those who do bother rarely do so objectively and authoritatively.

From my experience, jurors take things a lot more seriously in capital cases where they are to determine life/death than they do otherwise. Also, there is a LOT more attention from media and outside groups. There are also just plain fewer cases due to restrictions on when it is used.

I think you would be more likely to find problems/issues on non-capital cases and lower level felonies.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #70 on:** February 18, 2015, 09:54:27 PM »

Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner on February 11, 2015, 01:45:33 PM

Eh. There are people out there who need to be put down, and it's a proper responsibility of government to do it. Blanket refusal to execute is itself a form of government incompetence.

I used to believe that, too -- until the arrival of the Innocence Project. When you look at the number of people who have been on death row for DECADES who have now been proven conclusively to be innocent (not just "not guilty"), it has to make you question the death penalty.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #71 on:** February 18, 2015, 09:58:37 PM »

Quote from: RoadKingLarry on February 12, 2015, 10:46:14 PM

I'm strongly in favor of the death penalty but it has to have very strong proof of guilt.
A couple of examples of "proof enough" would be Nidal Hassan and the Aurora theater shooter, not much doubt in either of those cases.

As to wrongful convictions. In my perfect world any member of the prosecution ( or defense) from the judge down to the clerk that was involved in any prosecutorial misconduct such as withholding exculpatory evidence, fabrication of evidence, perjury etc... intended to wrongly convict someone of any crime, would upon conviction suffer the same penalty they did or would have imposed on their intended victim up to and including the death penalty. This would also apply to cops either withholding, loosing or fabricating evidence or committing perjury.
Nifong is one example that comes quickly to mind.

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Hawkmoon · « **Reply #72 on:** February 18, 2015, 10:02:21 PM »

Quote from: MechAg94 on February 17, 2015, 06:03:07 PM

Punishing a prosecutor who knowingly convicted innocent people is very serious business.

Here in the Yoo Ess of Aay we don't punish them, we give them their own television shows.

(Yes, I'm looking at you, Nancy Grace.)

Boomhauer · « **Reply #73 on:** February 18, 2015, 10:25:31 PM »

Quote

Nancy Grace

Can we hand her over to ISIS? Please please please?

Doggy Daddy · « **Reply #74 on:** February 18, 2015, 11:59:01 PM »

Quote from: Boomhauer on February 18, 2015, 10:25:31 PM

Can we hand her over to ISIS? Please please please?

I don't believe she could compete with the goats.

News:

Author Topic: Executions by nitrogen gas (Read 12361 times)