Author Topic: Hillary Clinton running for president?!  (Read 34370 times)

Ben

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2015, 07:35:54 PM »
Yessiree, ol' Hillary is just a woman of the people.

If we need more proof -- the students at the community college where she was supposed to be meeting "ordinary people" were locked in their classrooms while she and her entourage strolled the corridors.

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/04/296880-hillary-visits-college-see-everyday-iowans-students-locked-classrooms/

I'm really curious as to how that's legal. It may very well (sadly) be, but I'd be interested on the justification language. It's one thing for the Secret Service to cordon off and/or restrict areas and keep people from entering them, but to my mind, it's completely something else to detain people in locked rooms.

I guess the question also is, who did it? SS, local PD, College administrative idiots?
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MechAg94

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2015, 07:41:49 PM »
http://freebeacon.com/politics/ladies-and-gentlemen-the-media-covering-hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign/

But the reporters are apparently chasing her around quite aggressively. 
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charby

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2015, 05:23:41 PM »
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/elections/presidential/caucus/2015/04/15/clinton-unnecessary-regulations-thwart-business-growth/25837195/

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Hillary Clinton on Wednesday that problems they face include taxes that are too restrictive, an immigration system that doesn't allow them to hire workers they need, and health insurance expenses that continue to increase too much.

So she is for H1B visas for cheaper labor. I thought democrats were for higher wages and unionized workers.
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Ben

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2015, 05:29:41 PM »
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/elections/presidential/caucus/2015/04/15/clinton-unnecessary-regulations-thwart-business-growth/25837195/

So she is for H1B visas for cheaper labor. I thought democrats were for higher wages and unionized workers.

Actually the H1Bs are usually not for the cheap labor:

Quote
H-1B visa. The US H1B visa is a non-immigrant visa that allows US companies to employ foreign workers in specialty occupations that require theoretical or technical expertise in specialized fields such as in architecture, engineering, mathematics, science, and medicine.

I worked with a few Canadians scientists that were in the US on the H-1Bs, and they were getting compensated equally to US workers.

I hate to agree with Clinton, but we should be making the H-1B easier to get. This is all educated and skilled labor. We're already getting plenty of manual labor coming in, both legally and illegally.
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charby

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2015, 05:33:37 PM »
Actually the H1Bs are usually not for the cheap labor:

I worked with a few Canadians scientists that were in the US on the H-1Bs, and they were getting compensated equally to US workers.

I hate to agree with Clinton, but we should be making the H-1B easier to get. This is all educated and skilled labor. We're already getting plenty of manual labor coming in, both legally and illegally.

I see your point, I also imagine we probably got plenty of homegrown talent just need to pay enough to convince people to move or move the jobs to them.
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roo_ster

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2015, 05:39:23 PM »
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/elections/presidential/caucus/2015/04/15/clinton-unnecessary-regulations-thwart-business-growth/25837195/

So she is for H1B visas for cheaper labor. I thought democrats were for higher wages and unionized workers.

Not anymore.  The Democrats dumped the working class a few election cycles ago in favor of cultural marxism uber alles.  And the H1Bs compete against white and asian Americans, who are not part of the Democrats Coalition of the Fringes.


Actually the H1Bs are usually not for the cheap labor:

I worked with a few Canadians scientists that were in the US on the H-1Bs, and they were getting compensated equally to US workers.

I hate to agree with Clinton, but we should be making the H-1B easier to get. This is all educated and skilled labor. We're already getting plenty of manual labor coming in, both legally and illegally.

Most H1Bs are here to undercut American STEM workers.  There are workshops those who want to pay less for STEM workers  (and get foreign indentured servants instead) attend that show them how to game the system.  They are pretty blatant about it.  Given that less than half of STEM grads go into STEM work, we have puh-lenty of native born talent.

It is welfare for tech billionaires, which is why folk like Zuckerberg are pushing for more H1Bs.  Facebook is worth many billions of dollars and yet currently employs fewer than 9,000 Americans.  And Zuckerberg wants to pay them even less.
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MechAg94

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2015, 06:17:30 PM »
Yeah, based on all the comments I see here and elsewhere, the purpose is to keep the labor rate from increasing.  More pay would attract more US workers to either come back or enter the market.  Anytime someone talks about no US workers, that is almost always left out.  We can't find enough US workers (for that pay scale) so we need to bring in more foreign workers. 

I am sure there are a some exceptions, but I think that applies to most. 
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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2015, 01:28:33 AM »
I hate to agree with Clinton, but we should be making the H-1B easier to get. This is all educated and skilled labor. We're already getting plenty of manual labor coming in, both legally and illegally.

What profession or professions are there in this country for which we have a shortage of qualified people already here, among our own citizens? Look at the statistics for kids graduating in the so-called "learned professions" and you'll see that an unacceptably high percentage can't find jobs in their specialty. Why should we import yet more people in those professions to help ensure that our own graduates will never find work in their chosen field?
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Ben

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2015, 09:54:39 AM »
What profession or professions are there in this country for which we have a shortage of qualified people already here, among our own citizens? Look at the statistics for kids graduating in the so-called "learned professions" and you'll see that an unacceptably high percentage can't find jobs in their specialty. Why should we import yet more people in those professions to help ensure that our own graduates will never find work in their chosen field?

Nursing, IT, and welding are a few to start with. You can Google more.
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Marnoot

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2015, 11:09:04 AM »
Nursing, IT, and welding are a few to start with. You can Google more.

How much of the IT one is real shortages vs employers firing their US employees, claiming a shortage, and hiring H1B replacements?

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-20150222-column.html#page=1
http://personalliberty.com/angry-california-stem-workers-train-h-1b-replacements-ahead-layoffs/

Granted the above are about the same company, but I wonder if it might be a bit more endemic than that. I haven't been on the IT side of things in some time though (depending on values of IT, I'm a software developer), so maybe there is a shortage in parts of the country. I do know there's a shortage of experienced .NET developers in Utah, but that's about the extent of my direct knowledge on the subject (we ended up hiring an H1-B in Indiana (originally from India), spent 6 months looking locally).

Ben

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2015, 11:54:25 AM »
A question (I don't know the answer) would be, how many of those IT employees are level 1 helpdesk sorts vs those with specialized skills? To my way of thinking, a lot of that low level stuff going to India is similar to farm labor jobs going to Mexican immigrants. There are plenty of US citizens who could pick oranges, but won't. If pay is the argument, then we have to be prepared to pay more for food, computers, software, etc. It's the $15 argument, except for higher skilled workers.

For that matter, if one is against hiring foreign workers at lower pay, then we probably shouldn't be shopping at Walmart or other big box stores where 90% of the goods are manufactured by foreign workers.

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2015, 07:21:18 PM »
Wasn't there a thread not to long back about Google, Microsoft and bunch of Silicon Valley IT companies colluding to keep to IT pay low?

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2015, 10:02:29 AM »
Nursing, IT, and welding are a few to start with. You can Google more.

No lack of American citizen personnel for nursing.  Recent grads go without work while they are imported from Nigera, India, & such.  Get one of them in a position of authority and you end up with "all-Indian" floors as they discriminate in favor of similar imports.  Same with the Nigerians, but they usuall y come with the increased risk of sexual assault from the male Nigerian nurses.

Plenty of comp sci grads going without work, too.

A question (I don't know the answer) would be, how many of those IT employees are level 1 helpdesk sorts vs those with specialized skills? To my way of thinking, a lot of that low level stuff going to India is similar to farm labor jobs going to Mexican immigrants. There are plenty of US citizens who could pick oranges, but won't. If pay is the argument, then we have to be prepared to pay more for food, computers, software, etc. It's the $15 argument, except for higher skilled workers.

For that matter, if one is against hiring foreign workers at lower pay, then we probably shouldn't be shopping at Walmart or other big box stores where 90% of the goods are manufactured by foreign workers.

The farm labor component of fruits & vegetables is a tiny proportion of the price paid by the consumer.  Double the cost of farm labor and a head of lettuce goes up a whopping $0.05 or so to the consumer.  There is a level of pay where I would quit my current job and do any of these jobs.  

Have not seen studies for engineering, software, & IT, but the non-labor cost per hour of my time charged a customer dwarfs my labor (salary, benefits, etc.).  IOW, overhead and compliance and all that jazz is greater than the cost of labor.

Do I hear a call for tariffs?  Sounds good to me.  NAFTA and WTO have been nothing but a curse.

Wasn't there a thread not to long back about Google, Microsoft and bunch of Silicon Valley IT companies colluding to keep to IT pay low?

Indeed.  They were hammered in court for collusion and anti-competitive practices.  And retaliated against companies that did not play ball.


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MechAg94

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2015, 10:44:40 AM »
What types of welders are running short?  Most of the specialty welding I can think of pays pretty well, but usually comes with long hours and travel.  My uncle does pipeline welding and they often work 7/12's with one or two weekends off a month if that.  I don't know what basic construction/pipe welders makes.  It hasn't always been that good in the past and quality of work varies.  Then you have a company like Dow Chemical who starts building a new plant and sucks up all the qualified welders for miles around. 
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Ben

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2015, 12:52:54 PM »
No lack of American citizen personnel for nursing.  Recent grads go without work while they are imported from Nigera, India, & such.  Get one of them in a position of authority and you end up with "all-Indian" floors as they discriminate in favor of similar imports.  Same with the Nigerians, but they usuall y come with the increased risk of sexual assault from the male Nigerian nurses.

Plenty of comp sci grads going without work, too.

The farm labor component of fruits & vegetables is a tiny proportion of the price paid by the consumer.  Double the cost of farm labor and a head of lettuce goes up a whopping $0.05 or so to the consumer.  There is a level of pay where I would quit my current job and do any of these jobs.  

Have not seen studies for engineering, software, & IT, but the non-labor cost per hour of my time charged a customer dwarfs my labor (salary, benefits, etc.).  IOW, overhead and compliance and all that jazz is greater than the cost of labor.

Do I hear a call for tariffs?  Sounds good to me.  NAFTA and WTO have been nothing but a curse.

Indeed.  They were hammered in court for collusion and anti-competitive practices.  And retaliated against companies that did not play ball.


Maybe it's different in TX, but in CA, nursing jobs go begging. I have a couple of relatives in the field getting tons of overtime they'd rather not have.

Anyway, I don't want to start a whole big thing, but I guess I'm a little confused that on a forum where most of the members are all capitalist and Ayn Rand, that we're mad at private businesses hiring whoever the hell they want, and private citizens, whether born here or here legally, accepting whatever wage they want.

There are several threads here about the stupidity of college degrees as prerequisites for so many jobs, especially in IT. So who cares if the person with a comp sci degree from a crappy state college can't get a job, but the self-taught kid from Kansas (or Poland) with hands-on mad skillz can? Or that they may decide that they're fine with $25/hr, while a degreed individual with no experience thinks they're worth $50/hr, and dammit, it's the fault of big business that they can't find a job in their field?

I also don't see much difference between this and 'Right to Work" states. I think most here are in favor of them. Isn't a primary design of that system to allow businesses to hire who they want, and if a person is happy working at a non-union $25/hr job, vs a union $50/hr job, that they have a right to work at that lower wage if both they and their employer are happy with the deal?

I simply see individuals here legally via visa as no different than anyone else who may take a job at whatever wage. If the market approves, then maybe that's the correct wage. If the market, and consumers, see crappy service at that wage, or workers stop accepting it, or demand for the job goes up so much relative to supply, then the wage increases.

Again, as I mentioned above, I only have my one data point, but what I saw was individuals not only getting equally compensated, but individuals who worked hard and were eager to work because they went to a lot of trouble and were driven to get those visas. Certainly they worked harder with a better attitude than many of my US born coworkers, who had a "This is what I'm owed" mentality (though I also had very hard working and conscientious coworkers).

I simply see this as market forces at work.

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vaskidmark

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2015, 01:04:58 PM »
Just finished watching the Sunday talk shows (DVR, not time travel).

What the heck is going on?  The press does not like Hillary, the press says she is unapproachable and autocratic and out of touch with her base, let alone without a clue about the rest of the country.

And yet she will beat any other contender that surfaces.

My cognitive has a huge dissonance.

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2015, 01:22:52 PM »
Ben, it's not so much the hiring of OTA folks that gets everyone's goat here, it's corporate America's lying about the need to hire OTAs on H1B visas.
If there were a true shortage of IT types in this country, then by all means bring in folks from other countries.  But there is no shortage.  Scams and fraud should piss everyone off.
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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2015, 02:01:53 PM »
To VA's point:

Dems (and their ilk) will hold their nose and vote for Hillary given no other (liberal/Leftie) choices.  Do recall the 2008 primaries, where Hillary was expecting to be anointed President, when suddenly Obama jumped in the race and Dems (and their ilk) flocked to him and his campaign, sucking the oxygen out of her campaign.  The only reason she stayed even somewhat competitive can be attributed to Operation Chaos.

Should Warren jump in or (Hahahahaha) Biden, then you'll see a split in the Dems.  But for right now, she's the only one in the race.  (And word is that she's been hard at work to keep everyone else out...)

To Ben's Point:

The US Chamber of Commerce is heavy in advocating for more immigrants.  Why?  Cheap Labor.   That's why they favor amnesty for illegals and bringing in more H1B's.   The problem is not that there is "shortage" of IT/Engineer and other STEM types in the US.  The problem is that the companies don't want to pay the "prevailing" wage.   They want cheap.  As has been the experience with many other folks here, the H1B's are good at following scripts and having the book answer(s) for problems.  The problem is that the book/script usually doesn't have all the answers.  Their inability to go off script (or to jump ahead) when dealing with customers who have already isolated and determined the problem(s) cause more consternation then would be from someone trained to be more "flexible" and not so "linear" in their thinking.  The Google, Apple, et al.  Collusion case proves that there is not a shortage of American IT types, but simply a shortage of "cheap to hire" IT types.

http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2015, 02:12:43 PM »
never mind
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 07:15:18 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

charby

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2015, 02:45:37 PM »
No lack of American citizen personnel for nursing.  Recent grads go without work while they are imported from Nigera, India, & such.  Get one of them in a position of authority and you end up with "all-Indian" floors as they discriminate in favor of similar imports.  Same with the Nigerians, but they usuall y come with the increased risk of sexual assault from the male Nigerian nurses.

Plenty of comp sci grads going without work, too.

The farm labor component of fruits & vegetables is a tiny proportion of the price paid by the consumer.  Double the cost of farm labor and a head of lettuce goes up a whopping $0.05 or so to the consumer.  There is a level of pay where I would quit my current job and do any of these jobs.  

Have not seen studies for engineering, software, & IT, but the non-labor cost per hour of my time charged a customer dwarfs my labor (salary, benefits, etc.).  IOW, overhead and compliance and all that jazz is greater than the cost of labor.

Do I hear a call for tariffs?  Sounds good to me.  NAFTA and WTO have been nothing but a curse.

Indeed.  They were hammered in court for collusion and anti-competitive practices.  And retaliated against companies that did not play ball.




ZOMG I'm agreeing with Roo ster!

You put more money in someone's pocket (especially when they work for it), they will spend more money, hopefully causing economic growth. You stagnate their wages where they are living paycheck to paycheck, the economy isn't going to grow.

Also industry has done it to themselves, running lean for many years has left a knowledge gap between the older skilled workers and now the need to hire replacement workers.
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TechMan

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2015, 03:44:49 PM »
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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2015, 03:56:51 PM »
ZOMG I'm agreeing with Roo ster!

You put more money in someone's pocket (especially when they work for it), they will spend more money, hopefully causing economic growth. You stagnate their wages where they are living paycheck to paycheck, the economy isn't going to grow.

Who's going to pay for that? I don't know of any money trees. You put more money in someone's pocket, it generally means it's coming out of yours.
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MechAg94

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Re: Hillary Clinton running for president?!
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2015, 04:04:11 PM »
It certainly doesn't help that our FedGov has done a lot over the years to increase the cost of employees. 
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