The Indispensable Sex + The SECDEF Lied

[BlueStarLizzard]

As for weight, when I was at West Point in the 80s, we used M-14 rifles for parades, but also for road marches and such, but used M-16s for marksmanship and tactical training.  The 14s made the 16s seem really light.  They were A1s.

Considering how obtuse on the subject fistful is being, I can't help but think that the military would be improved by reviving such practices for all training...

[roo_ster]

Iirc israel still has lots of old car15s in stock.  Those are some super light carbines and would be about perfect for issue to smaller gals.

I would be very surprised if any gal could manage an a2 and body armor.  I did manage it for a bit but could not get nose on charging handle.

[Perd Hapley]

Considering how obtuse on the subject fistful is being...

 

If it helps you, I was a SAW-gunner for a year or so. It's not heavy. For a belt-fed. What branch were you in?

[BlueStarLizzard]

If it helps you, I was a SAW-gunner for a year or so. It's not heavy. For a belt-fed. What branch were you in?

I notice that you did not argue the same point I made with the two men who did serve.

[brimic]

Re: carrying...
Depends on the configuration...
My A2 DCM rifle (very heavy WOA barrel, buttstock weighted) gets pulled around on a cart.
Carbine- weight is really negligible to me, then again I don't think a M1 or a hunting rifle on the heavy end of the scale are all that heavy either to carry around all day.
A2 stock- barely works with armor for me, but I'm 6'4". Works great with normal clothes or a light jacket for me though.

[Perd Hapley]

I notice that you did not argue the same point I made with the two men who did serve.

Perhaps it's because they served, and are just speaking from their experience, as am I. I notice that most seem to agree with me, and you're not calling them "obtuse."

Like I said, I don't what your experiences have been. Maybe you and your girlfriends do a lot of still-hunting with 12-pound varmint rifles, or compete in 3-gun. I don't know. I've just been pointing out what I think are relevant facts that non-veterans may not have considered.

Sorry if it was not helpful to you.

[wmenorr67]

I don't give a *expletive deleted*ck what you are carrying, once you throw on body armor and a full combat load of ammo and other accessories any damn rifle is going to get heavy, just because you are worn the *expletive deleted*ck out from carrying all that BS.

[lee n. field]

Williamson is a realist, if a bit of an ass, and you will of course remember that everyone, but especially women, is stimmed up to *here* in those novels if they are in a combat assignment.

Freehold is the only thing of his I have read.  His characters have high tech advantages, nanotech and implants, not available to us in the real world.  (But, part way into the guerrilla portion of the war the protagonist's runs out, and her feminine biology starts to reassert itself (to her dismay).)

[BlueStarLizzard]

Perhaps it's because they served, and are just speaking from their experience, as am I. I notice that most seem to agree with me, and you're not calling them "obtuse."

Like I said, I don't what your experiences have been. Maybe you and your girlfriends do a lot of still-hunting with 12-pound varmint rifles, or compete in 3-gun. I don't know. I've just been pointing out what I think are relevant facts that non-veterans may not have considered.

Sorry if it was not helpful to you.

Fistful, I did point out relevant facts. You ignored them. Based on my experience CARRYING STUFF AROUND.  You do not need to serve to understand what it is like to carry an unwieldy object for significant periods of time.

And here comes, Wmnorr, also pointing out that any rifle is going to get heavy after awhile.

You tried to make a point that, specifically, the M16 is heavy after a 12 mile march. Well, no *expletive deleted*it Sherlock. That fact does not make the M16 a heavy rifle, by any stretch of the imagination.

They did not "agree" with you. They pointed out that the M16s were light and they came to that conclusion by having to carry around the previous military standard rifle.
I also think the basic design is light weight, based on comparison with handling MUCH HEAVIER RIFLES.
Supposedly, you claim to have also handled much heavier rifles. So, yes, you are being obtuse, either that or your full of *expletive deleted*it.

Face it, if you are in the military, you are going to be expected to carry around a rifle. Of all the flipping options out there, you got lucky, in terms of weight. And you can take your service and shove it were the sun don't shine, because it doesn't qualify as an excuse to be a jerk.

[Perd Hapley]

I wasn't in any way a jerk. Maybe you took some things as snark, but I was being quite sincere. As I said from the beginning, I DON'T KNOW WHAT EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE IN CARRYING RIFLES. You may have plenty. I'm not judging you. I don't know what women are capable of in that regard. I was in the infantry, and I didn't see a lot of female soldiers.

I don't recall you posting anything from your own experience, other than shooting rifles (not carrying them), and carrying pillows. Again, not being a jerk. Just having what I thought was a cordial conversation. I don't know where the hostility is coming from.

[Ron]

BSL, you are way out of line.

[Jamisjockey]

Being proficient with a rifle is a far cry from being ready to carry one into combat.  Cool your jets and chillax

[KD5NRH]

And here comes, Wmnorr, also pointing out that any rifle is going to get heavy after awhile.

Hell, a 7" Blackhawk gets pretty heavy after a few hours of hunting in rough terrain.  Doesn't mean that even a small person with a fair amount of conditioning can't carry it or something considerably heavier when the need is significant.  Some pretty small guys lugged Garands and Enfields all over Europe.

[roo_ster]

Being proficient with a rifle is a far cry from being ready to carry one into combat.  Cool your jets and chillax

Plus one.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Hell, a 7" Blackhawk gets pretty heavy after a few hours of hunting in rough terrain.  Doesn't mean that even a small person with a fair amount of conditioning can't carry it or something considerably heavier when the need is significant.  Some pretty small guys lugged Garands and Enfields all over Europe.

Thank you.

My point, the orginal flaw I pointed out, is exactly this.

The rifle issued in the OP probably had nothing to do with sex and everything to do with the fact that it is the more appropriate firearm for the given job. The continued myth that woman need some special consideration when it comes to the lightest of firearms because of size is annoying, especially when the reality is those same rifles serve to accommodate male physical needs just as much (if not more, considering that more men are going to be using them)

[Perd Hapley]

Thank you.

My point, the orginal flaw I pointed out, is exactly this.

The rifle issued in the OP probably had nothing to do with sex and everything to do with the fact that it is the more appropriate firearm for the given job. The continued myth that woman need some special consideration when it comes to the lightest of firearms because of size is annoying, especially when the reality is those same rifles serve to accommodate male physical needs just as much (if not more, considering that more men are going to be using them)

I don't really like that implication, either. What bothers me, going back and reading it, is that he calls the M16 "the real thing," as if what she was carrying (presumably an M4) put her at some disadvantage in that sort of a close-range confrontation. That's pretty stupid.