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Author Topic: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf  (Read 6468 times)

wmenorr67

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2016, 06:31:08 PM »

Other than a possible COC issue that I mentioned what makes you think it wasn't lawful? What Law do you think was broken to order the boats to leave?
 I'm allowed to risk my soldiers at my discretion for  mission accomplishment.  I may  very well have to answer to my commanders for the risks I take, but that goes up the chain, not down.

The point being none of us were there.  We are only getting part of the story.  We will never know the complete truth.
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agricola

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2016, 10:12:03 PM »

The point being none of us were there.  We are only getting part of the story.  We will never know the complete truth.

This, really.

Though if its true that the people in charge sent boats with crews that weren't trained, that had radios that didn't work, with officers in charge that had failed their navigation courses and in boats had mechanical problems, for a cruise just off the shores of Iran for the purposes of God knows what then really those people in charge should perhaps not be in charge in the future.  I don't blame that coxwain one bit, if anything he seems to have considerably reduced the level of stupid that existed at the time and at least everyone involved walked away afterwards.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2016, 10:27:04 PM »

Pretty sad, really.

Back in 1980, when my ex-wife and I were recently married, we bought a small (19 foot) day sailer from a marina that was a couple of miles up a river and then about 20 miles from where we were going to dock. As it happened, the day we went to pick up the boat and sail it home was foggy. The boat had a compass -- which we had no way of checking. I had a chart, but I hadn't sailed up that river for over 20 years.

Nevertheless, we set out. We hit every buoy going down the river, and every buoy we wanted to find on the way from the mouth of the river to our marina. "It's not rocket science" -- but it does require paying attention.

grampster

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2016, 10:33:58 PM »

I called Hillary today about this conversation and what happened with the boat crews.  She said, "What difference does it make?" Further she said that the coxswain never intended to disobey an order.  Not intending is a safe space...the director of the FBI declared it so.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2016, 12:07:12 AM »

The point being none of us were there.  We are only getting part of the story.  We will never know the complete truth.

Monday morning quarterbacking won't get us anywhere.
While maybe a bit of a reach though I can think of a couple of scenarios wherein the coxswain countermanding the order to evade could have been appropriate.
If in fact the order came way after the boats were "under the gun"  "improper hazarding a vessel" could come into play.

Biggest failures came way before the actual capture.
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RevDisk

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2016, 01:15:42 PM »


As for folks going on about disobeying orders...  If you have light weapons and the enemy has 40mm Bofors autocannons, yeah, maybe suicide isn't the best choice. Though I'd prefer not to be a 'guest' of Iran. Not going to Monday morning quarterback, but generally disobeying orders from an officer comes with high burden of proof. Being right isn't necessarily enough of a defense either. Giving up because some Haji aimed an AK at you, barring other circumstances or orders, is definitely NOT meeting that high burden of proof.

Regardless of the disobeying orders shenannagins, they all deserve to be thrown into the deepest, darkest hole for failing to destroy critical equipment and for giving intelligence to enemy forces. I don't know if treason would apply, because I don't think Iranians meet legal definition of 'enemy forces'. But a dozen other laws and regs DO apply. They deserve at least five to ten in Leavenworth for failure to destroy critical equipment, or scuttling the boat if destroying all the equipment was impossible (unlikely as that would be). If they all had broken toes or were waterboarded, ok, fine. Folks crack. If it was just stern words from an interrogator, throw them all in Leavenworth for a decade followed by a bad conduct discharge.

Those cowardly incompetent morons handed a lot of intel directly to the Iranians. Who are guaranteed to broker that to the Russians and possibly the PRC. That's potentially billions of dollars worth of equipment, and potentially risking lives if things ever get hostile with Iran and any other foreign power we eventually fight.

In the wake of Manning, Hillary, Petraeus, etc the military NEEDS to send set an example. Ignoring security violations by the brass is wrenching, but most grunts know the brass get to ignore the rules. If folks cotton to EVERYONE getting to ignore security and classification rules, we're completely boned. Honestly, if a tenth of the accusations are true, the sailors should be sentenced to breaking rocks for the rest of their life on live TV with every single last member of the military watching.

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dogmush

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2016, 01:22:35 PM »

They were, at least, extremely careless with the handling of classified info on those boats.

roo_ster

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2016, 01:35:48 PM »

In the wake of Manning, Hillary, Petraeus, etc the military NEEDS to send set an example. Ignoring security violations by the brass is wrenching, but most grunts know the brass get to ignore the rules. If folks cotton to EVERYONE getting to ignore security and classification rules, we're completely boned. Honestly, if a tenth of the accusations are true, the sailors should be sentenced to breaking rocks for the rest of their life on live TV with every single last member of the military watching.

In a more general sense this is already happening what with middle class folks' attitudes are trending.  Middle class anarchy and/or irish democracy are spreading.  Hillary & Co are making it worse as the middle class suckers begin to realize they are suckers.
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roo_ster

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Ben

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2016, 01:37:53 PM »

They were, at least, extremely careless with the handling of classified info on those boats.

I see what you did there.
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Scout26

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2016, 02:24:52 PM »

They were, at least, extremely careless with the handling of classified info on those boats.

Well, (per the FBI director) that's okay now.  ;/

I agree with Rev.  They were NOT under fire.  We point weapons at folks whom we suspect are bad actors on the high seas all the time. (Do it on land a lot also.)

I can't remember who said it, but they should have turned toward seaward and attempted to get back to international waters at best speed, avoiding an incident with the Iranians as best a possible.  Again, let them fire first.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2016, 02:45:00 PM »

Wow. Don't remember reading this before:


Remember when that P3 crew crash landed in china, rather than bailing out over the sea?
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BobR

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2016, 03:12:13 PM »

Remember when that P3 crew crash landed in china, rather than bailing out over the sea?

I remember. There were reasons.... I can't recall them right now. I do know they didn't ditch because of possible damage to the forward pressure bulkhead due to impact and having nose the radome torn off.

bob

Ben

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2016, 03:33:44 PM »

Remember when that P3 crew crash landed in china, rather than bailing out over the sea?

I do generally remember that incident, but I may be misremembering in that I thought they had initiated the protocols for equipment and data destruction before landing. Maybe I'm incorrect or they didn't finish or something?
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BobR

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2016, 03:55:29 PM »

I do generally remember that incident, but I may be misremembering in that I thought they had initiated the protocols for equipment and data destruction before landing. Maybe I'm incorrect or they didn't finish or something?

You are correct, the first thought was to get on the ground, they were tossing equipment out the door as they were trying to make it over land. They didn't have a lot of time so it wasn't completed.

bob

Balog

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2016, 03:59:42 PM »

We had thermite grenades in our trucks to destroy the radios if we were getting taken. Does the Navy have similar destructive means for their classified gear?
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BobR

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2016, 04:07:13 PM »

We had thermite grenades in our trucks to destroy the radios if we were getting taken. Does the Navy have similar destructive means for their classified gear?

Shipboard for sure, not on planes when I was in. That may have changed but I doubt it, planes and molten burning aluminum and other metals don't go together very well. I remember reading about them using a lot of thermite when the USS Pueblo was being captured.

bob

MillCreek

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2016, 04:57:25 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

The Hainan Island P-3 mid-air collision and subsequent emergency landing got a lot of press in the Seattle area at the time.  The P-3 squadron was based out of Whidbey Island Naval Air Station, about 30 miles NW of Seattle.
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markdido

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2016, 08:41:37 PM »

All military members receive training on the Code of Conduct, continuously throughout their career.

Really?

I was in for 22 years, served in Vietnam and the first Gulf War, and I only remember "receiving training" on the COC once in boot camp.

What's your military background?

Liberals believe that a woman, found raped and strangled with her own pantyhose is morally superior to a women with a dead rapist at her feet and a gun in her hands.

dogmush

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2016, 11:00:15 PM »

Really?

I was in for 22 years, served in Vietnam and the first Gulf War, and I only remember "receiving training" on the COC once in boot camp.

What's your military background?



I get annual Code of Conduct training plus additional, more in depth, classes before each deployment.

HeroHog

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2016, 11:49:59 PM »

The question is since when was this started? It wasn't a thing when I was in service but that was up till 80.
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dogmush

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2016, 10:20:11 AM »

My whole career. So at least from '98 on.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2016, 01:46:24 PM »

We got training on CoC prior to deploying to "the other guy's backyard" when there was a possibility of getting caught and detained. Additional training was required of those with higher levels of clearance.
My experience was '80s and '90s.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2016, 08:18:51 AM »

Really?

I was in for 22 years, served in Vietnam and the first Gulf War, and I only remember "receiving training" on the COC once in boot camp.

What's your military background?



20 years of service this August, 5 active from 88-93 and then since 2002 in the Guard.

During active duty time served 14 months or so in Korea and then a few months in Egypt.

Since I've been in the Guard been to the sandbox three times.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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Only the dead have seen the end of war!

BobR

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2016, 09:18:52 AM »

Like RKL during  my time ('71-'92) we got it in Boot Camp (although the General Orders of the Sentry was much more important to my well being) and I don't remember much at all until I started flying in the late '70s. Because we spent time in places like the Sea of Okhotsk and other places where we weren't welcomed with open arms and shots of vodka we received CoC training before every deployment. If it wasn't for that I am not sure it would have been anything but a check box every few years or so.

bob

41magsnub

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Re: Cowardice and incompetence in the Gulf
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2016, 10:01:22 AM »

Outside of in basic training I don't remember any such training.  We had lots of EO sessions...

However, I was peacetime Army in Kansas for 3 years.  I'm sure it would have been brought up had we deployed anywhere.
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