Author Topic: Things that I am tired of in this war:  (Read 41675 times)

glockfan.45

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2007, 05:48:46 AM »
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Never mind he is the CinC and charged with prosecuting this war in any way he sees fit.

Nope he gets no pass on that one. As a public figure and a representative of this nation and its people hes open to scrutiny, and criticism by said people.

Fistful I'm done with you here. All you have done so far is attempt to bait me into a flamewar, and frankly you have come off as a troll in the process. Anything I gave you in return was tit for tat, if somehow your ego was damaged in the process then perhaps you need to reassess yourself.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2007, 06:04:52 AM »
Now I am a troll with a fragile ego.  But those aren't meant as insults, surely?  In truth, you are the one who would rather attack your opponent's character than deal with the argument at hand.   

Again, why did you bring up "persecution"?  Since you want to claim to be done with me, you really should answer.  After all, to finish with me, you would first have to start. 
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wingnutx

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2007, 06:24:46 AM »
How dare you criticise his criticism, you brownshirt.

I criticise you = free speech

You criticise me back for what I've said = dangerous stifling of dissent


wingnutx

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2007, 06:26:05 AM »
I volunteered for the alchemy lessons, how to turn blood into oil.

Plus, I had so much fun stealing all the oil in the first gulf war.


Manedwolf

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2007, 06:47:12 AM »
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There was adequate time to debate and dissent before the war.

When everyone was being fed cherrypicked and edited shoddy intelligence to get us into it?

Colin Powell's little speech with the vial will haunt him the rest of his life.



First off, it was not "cherrypicked" (whatever that means) or shoddy.  The intelligence was consistent from Bush 1 through Bush 2.
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We should not march into Baghdad. . . . To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us, and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day Arab hero . . .assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part of thew orld into even greater instability."
- George Herbert Walker Bush, in his 1998 book A World Transformed

The Rabbi

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2007, 07:21:50 AM »
Hell, I went to make Ezekiel feel all warm and fuzzy.  grin

Then I'd say you failed your mission.  Go back and try making him warm and fuzzy again. grin
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2007, 07:42:51 AM »
And there we go again bitching about "how" we got into Iraq, rather than "what to do" now that we are there. Some of you guys clearly would not mind a defeat in Iraq to make a point in home politics. And that condemns you the most.

As far as the manifesto goes, I suspect most of it is on the mark. For me, the questionable portion is the general idea that Iraq can be won by purely military means alone, through direct engagement in the field. That seems plain wrong. Without winning the support of the population, guerrilla war against fanatics will be conventionally unwinnable, no matter how many snipers are deployed or how many doors are kicked in.

Ezekiel

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2007, 08:25:42 AM »
Fair enough.

This is one of the strongest agreements between you and I that others are likely to ever see.

I think people volunteered to go kill al Qaeda and Baathists.  I doubt they volunteered to enhance some general's career or appear warm and sensitive on the Today Show.
Zeke

thumbody

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2007, 09:35:03 AM »
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When everyone was being fed cherrypicked and edited shoddy intelligence to get us into it?
Manedwolf maybe this is where Bush Cherrypicked his info

borrowed from Art
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=4386.0
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"Bush Lied"
« on: September 17, 2006, 01:28:30 AM »
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I got this in an email; it's not new but every now and then some folks could stand to be reminded. Smiley  The quotes are from Lexis-Nexis, I'm told.

Titled:  "Whoops I forgot I said that!!"
 
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983." - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18,1998

"[WE] urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry( D - MA), and others Oct. 9,1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." > - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." - Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." - Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9,2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" - Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." - Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

SO NOW EVERY ONE OF THESE SAME DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED--THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR UNNECESSARILY!
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Ezekiel

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2007, 09:48:19 AM »
Presuming their recent information came from the Office of the Republican President, in reference to ongoing possession of WMD's, I don't see the quandry.

Sure, there remains a measure of accountability for so-readily parroting what turned out to be bunk: but nothing so significant as cherry-picking the bunk to begin with.

In addition, going back to 1998, in an attempt to justify a CURRENT failed policy, is somewhat bogus.

Merely an opinion.
Zeke

wmenorr67

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2007, 09:56:45 AM »
As on the line for why people volunteered.  I volunteered for a number of reasons, some of them personnal and won't be discussed here.  But one that really stands out and I will share is this.  I volunteered to come over here now so as that the hope would be that my children do not have to do it in 4-8 years.  And as it looks I will get he oppurtunity to come back in '08 since my entire BDE has been placed on notice for deployment.  And yes I am going to volunteer and do so proudly.
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wingnutx

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2007, 10:08:50 AM »
I'll be there about the same time.

Seeya there  grin

Perd Hapley

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2007, 11:12:07 AM »
Zeke, I find it interesting that you acknowledged some of the quotations were from the Clinton administration, yet you still claim the Bush administration had to cherry-pick intelligence to yield the same conclusions.  Don't you recall that Saddam had ceased to cooperate with inspectors prior to the war?  How could anyone do otherwise than assume Saddam was still in possession of WMD?   

You also speak of this intelligence as coming from the "Office of the...President."  I would have thought Congressional committees got their intel from the horses mouth, not from the President.  I could be wrong.
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Ezekiel

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2007, 11:40:21 AM »
Quote
Zeke, I find it interesting that you acknowledged some of the quotations were from the Clinton administration, yet you still claim the Bush administration had to cherry-pick intelligence to yield the same conclusions.

Interesting point, which I readily grant.  It would seem, however, that prior administrations -- perhaps going back to GHWB after Gulf 1? -- analyzed the totality of data and determined that a full-scale invasion with regime change was a decidedly BAD idea.  GWB "saw what he wanted to see" and went against approximately 2,000 years of "bad idea" doctrine.

Congressional Committees seem to make up data -- both sides -- that supports their point of view.  In this case, GWB saw only what he desired to see.  (Or, what Darth Cheney told him to.)

Merely an opinion.
Zeke

Perd Hapley

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2007, 11:48:16 AM »
Quote
It would seem, however, that prior administrations -- perhaps going back to GHWB after Gulf 1? -- analyzed the totality of data and determined that a full-scale invasion with regime change was a decidedly BAD idea.  GWB "saw what he wanted to see" and went against approximately 2,000 years of "bad idea" doctrine.

2000 years of...  What?  What are you talking about?  Besides, you're talking as if nothing changed in the Middle East from one administration to the next.  And as if Iraq was some isolated problem to be solved, not a part of a region that had suddenly become very much more important to Americans since 11 Sept. 
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Bogie

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2007, 01:19:12 PM »
Guys... a suggestion...

We just put off this discussion until after the Islamic Nutjobs do something gnarsty again inside the continental US... And there WILL be a next time. Then the same people who are crying about international unfairness will be crying for heads on stakes, and wondering why our elected officials are not working in a speedier fashion towards that goal.
 
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280plus

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2007, 01:31:20 PM »
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Then the same people who are crying about international unfairness will be crying for heads on stakes, and wondering why our elected officials are not working in a speedier fashion towards that goal.
Nah, they'll just put stupid little flags on their cars and act like it's something meaningful...

 rolleyes
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2007, 02:03:32 PM »
Bogie, open your eyes!  They just took out Boston!  Time to invade Atlanta. 
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gunsmith

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2007, 02:22:47 PM »
I love it when my threads get to be two pages.

I got the letter from the Hugh Hewitt web page
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/

I would think he vetted it. Who knows though.

A friend of mine is an E7 in the infantry, his opinion of his officers, if listed here verbatim
would probably get me banned.

He thinks that most of them are in Iraq just long enough and close enough to the shooting to get a combat medal then run away.
He really hates the whole chain of command above NCO, I mean really despises them.
He was at a roadblock of some kind and a car wouldn't stop so he and the guys he were with shot at it.
A little boy ended up being killed, my friend is so angry about the way the war is being prosecuted that I am kind of afraid to talk to him about it.
Funny enough, he hates the Republicans but keeps on voting for them because he really , really hates Democrats.
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wingnutx

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MechAg94

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2007, 02:48:12 PM »
Leaving the party stuff aside, the part that bothers me most is the part about how he thinks we are conducting the war and using soldiers as police.  The administration sets the tone for such things to some extent.  The Congress has some input in that also.  It starts at the top and trickles down.  Bush has likely had opportunities to control some of that stuff and failed to one way or another.  The question is, I don't see anyone else in D.C. who would do better or even try.

Of course, I have read in a several different places that peace time service breeds peace time commanders.  It takes a war to show who really knows the job and who doesn't.   
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2007, 03:13:12 PM »
hmmm... weren't we a ways into WWII before we started getting decent field commanders into the field?

 Regarding the "we shouldn't have gone in": we did though. Now we have to see it through...

MechAg94

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2007, 03:25:00 PM »
Yes, I would like to see the opposition talk more in terms of solutions and stop complaining about going to war and calling Bush names.  I think that is the primary thing the original post was complaining about.  It wasn't the actual dissent.  It was the constant carping, calling Bush names, and general complaining without constructive discussion at all. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2007, 03:53:59 PM »
Yes, I would like to see the opposition talk more in terms of solutions and stop complaining about going to war and calling Bush names.  I think that is the primary thing the original post was complaining about.  It wasn't the actual dissent.  It was the constant carping, calling Bush names, and general complaining without constructive discussion at all. 

Exactly.  And many of the complaints are baseless to begin with.  My favorite is the one about how all of our troops were fully outfitted with bullet-proof armor before we invaded Iraq but George Bush took it all away before we invaded. 
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wingnutx

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Re: Things that I am tired of in this war:
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2007, 04:00:27 PM »
I still hear from people about how the troops don't have any armor.