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Author Topic: Jogger shot in Georgia  (Read 8381 times)

makattak

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2020, 11:54:03 AM »

Doesn't sound good for the defense.

New video shows Ahmaud Arbery chased for 4 minutes by father and son who shot him: lawyer
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ahmaud-arbery-video-chased-minutes-father-son-shot-lawyer

I don't really like to trust news reports that don't include the actual evidence.

That said, as you can tell from my previous posts, the video is unlikely to change my position since it's pretty clear I think they are rightly charged with murder. (Felony murder.)

I've also seen that there is apparently a history of corruption in the local police department. That lends credence to my thought that the elder being a former cop explains a lot of what happened.

I'll also note another difference between this one and Zimmerman. With the Zimmerman case, it took a lie (from a "witness" that is becoming increasingly clear was pretending to be someone else) to get him charged. It took a video to get these guys charged.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2020, 07:00:39 PM »

I don't care about any of the people involved.

If justice is done, that's all I care about.

The media wants to whip up a bunch of emotion on this subject and incident but I really don't give a *expletive deleted*it.

Do the right the thing and don't bother me with it, is government that incompetent that I need to know and have opinion on this incident?

Found a word that slips through the filter btw, "shits".



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bedlamite

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2020, 07:17:03 PM »

I don't care about any of the people involved.

If justice is done, that's all I care about.

The media wants to whip up a bunch of emotion on this subject and incident but I really don't give a *expletive deleted*it.

Do the right the thing and don't bother me with it, is government that incompetent that I need to know and have opinion on this incident?

Found a word that slips through the filter btw, "shits".





Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you. However, we have a hyper-partisan media pushing an agenda. The press can not be allowed to be judge and jury.
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WLJ

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #103 on: May 19, 2020, 11:53:38 AM »

And another video. This one from 2017
Has no real bearing on this current mess IMHO but I'm sure both sides will see in it what they want to see and use it, or not, accordingly.

Video Shows Police Attempt to Use a Taser on Ahmaud Arbery
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-shows-police-attempt-to-use-a-taser-on-ahmaud-arbery/
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Ben

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2020, 12:14:14 PM »

And another video. This one from 2017
Has no real bearing on this current mess IMHO but I'm sure both sides will see in it what they want to see and use it, or not, accordingly.

Video Shows Police Attempt to Use a Taser on Ahmaud Arbery
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-shows-police-attempt-to-use-a-taser-on-ahmaud-arbery/

I don't know what to think of it. Theres a longer video of the incident down in the comments:

https://youtu.be/5ZsVD61pirs

On the one hand, "suspicious activity" doesn't necessarily cut it in a free country. On the other hand, Arbery was unnecessarily aggressive. On the third hand, the second cop picked a weird time to taze him, i.e., well after his hands were exposed. On the fourth hand, they were coming up with weak reasons (e.g., "improperly parked") to tow the car to impound and search it.
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MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2020, 12:22:28 PM »

I think early on it was said that even if he was a criminal, it is hard to justify what happened under the law.  We may be getting to that point, but it is still hard to justify what happened. 
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makattak

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2020, 12:24:47 PM »

I've seen some legal analysis (here) that suggests that both Arbery and the Michaels may have been justified in self-defense, owing to the mistaken beliefs on both their parts.

Arbery, because he feared for his life from random strangers stopping him with guns. Even if they had no plans to harm him, he was put in fear by their actions.  

The Michaels, because they had no aims to harm Arbery (or, in a less generous telling, IF they can prevail in their claims that they had no such aims...), and his actions in attacking them (even justified!) put them in fear of their life. They wrongly believed they had citizens arrest powers, and while that belief was wrong, based on that belief, they were justified.


Honestly, I have no idea if this legal analysis is correct, but even if they ultimately prevail in a self-defense claim, it's a major mess. It shows the danger of ASSUMPTIONS on the part of both parties.

Just a reminder: don't try to exercise police powers, especially with openly carried firearms, unless you are actually the police.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2020, 06:35:04 PM »

Let me say up front I have no knowledge or experience with citizens arrest.  It doesn't exist like that in Ohio.  With that said, the mutual self defense argument is legally interesting.  On one hand, if (and a big if at that) the father/son team is allowed to make an arrest by use of force, or threat of force, then Mr. Jogger cannot argue self defense against a legal use/threat of force.  Kind of like a burglar cannot argue self defense against an armed home owner in the owner's home after breaking in.  On the other hand, if the law holds that the father/son team cannot legally use force, then Mr. Jogger's attack is the one legally justified.  I think the whole thing turns on the legality of the father/son team attempting the stop while displaying weapon(s). 

As for Mr. Jogger's prior record (if any) and the prior stop, that can't come into evidence absent proof that the shooter knew of that before the trigger was pulled.  They can't argue "he was a criminal with a history of violence" unless they knew of any of that going into the incident.

That said, I agree.  My job is to protect my family.  My job is not to make an arrest, especially outside my home for a possible property crime I didn't witness.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2020, 08:57:12 PM »

I'm pretty sure they are allowed to make a citizens' arrest using threat of force, and actual force if necessary, BUT the conditions were not met for them to do so (although it's not as cut and dried IMHO as Colion Noir says it is), so them brandishing the weapons and impeding Mr. Arbery was illegal.  I think GBI is charging them appropriately with Aggrevated Assault and Felony Murder.  Felony Murder does not require intent, and it fact it doesn't matter whether McMichaels pulled the trigger, or if the gun went off by accident during the struggle.  The gun should have been slung or holstered, or not been there at all.

I think the world is probably a better place without any of these 3 losers in it, but I'm more sympathetic towards Arbery.  Or perhaps I'm just more hostile towards the McMichaels.  I'm also getting sick of all the race-baiting going on.

The most intriguing part is were the local police complicit in the murder and that's why they tried to cover it up.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2020, 08:15:36 PM »

Might depend on state law. Here if a someone gets killed during commission of a crime all the crime committers can be charged with murder.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2020, 08:25:31 PM »

With the ongoing caveat of "information that's available", I'm thinking they're overextending themselves with a murder wrap.


Murder wrap? Is that to wrap the bodies in?
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Ben

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #113 on: May 21, 2020, 08:33:07 PM »


Murder wrap? Is that to wrap the bodies in?

Only the ones you want to put in the fridge for later.
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MillCreek

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #114 on: May 21, 2020, 09:58:54 PM »

^^^Cryovac makes them last longer.
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230RN

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2020, 12:53:28 PM »


Murder wrap? Is that to wrap the bodies in?

Oh, ghistfull, reely?



« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 01:15:22 PM by 230RN »

HankB

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2020, 02:23:26 PM »

News story in my local (Austin, TX) rag quoted the 3rd man's lawyer asserting that he had nothing to do with the murder and his only involvement was as a witness.

Unless the police have some hard evidence the 3rd guy was more involved, the case - any case - against the guy who shot the cell phone video from a different vehicle some distance away from the action looks tenuous at best. (Caveat: that's from what I've read in the news, which is my only source of information to date.)
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zxcvbob

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2020, 02:28:30 PM »

News story in my local (Austin, TX) rag quoted the 3rd man's lawyer asserting that he had nothing to do with the murder and his only involvement was as a witness.

Unless the police have some hard evidence the 3rd guy was more involved, the case - any case - against the guy who shot the cell phone video from a different vehicle some distance away from the action looks tenuous at best. (Caveat: that's from what I've read in the news, which is my only source of information to date.)

I read somewhere that he might have chased Arbery and blocked him at some point with his vehicle.  Don't know whether it's true or not, but it fits with the charges.  I suspect they don't really want him, they are putting the squeeze on him to testify against the McMichaels.
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Pb

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2020, 04:56:32 PM »



As for Mr. Jogger's prior record (if any) and the prior stop, that can't come into evidence absent proof that the shooter knew of that before the trigger was pulled.  They can't argue "he was a criminal with a history of violence" unless they knew of any of that going into the incident.


The former cop involved in the killing worked crime committed by Aubrey previously.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2020, 05:09:44 PM »

As we know, filming police doing their jobs in public is a horrible crime which must be stopped. Ergo, filming not-police doing the police's job in public is also a horrible crime which must be stopped.

This is basic stuff, people. Come on!
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MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #120 on: May 23, 2020, 10:47:37 AM »

As we know, filming police doing their jobs in public is a horrible crime which must be stopped. Ergo, filming not-police doing the police's job in public is also a horrible crime which must be stopped.

This is basic stuff, people. Come on!
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dogmush

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2021, 03:41:01 AM »

Thread Necro:

The Feds have indicted the father, son, and video taker on hate crimes and attempted kidnapping.  Dad and son got some firearms charges as well.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/29/us/ahmaud-arbery-shooting-indicted-thursday/index.html

Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2021, 08:58:17 AM »

Police are learning, better be very careful how you treat "joggers". It might be a better idea to leave the "joggers" alone.

The police can't get away with chasing "joggers" down anymore so why would anyone think that as a non LEO they would be treated any better?



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bedlamite

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makattak

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #124 on: September 06, 2021, 10:55:46 AM »

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought
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