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Author Topic: Jogger shot in Georgia  (Read 9753 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #150 on: November 24, 2021, 04:22:37 PM »

Meanwhile the MSM and the race baiters continue to push the narrative that the justice sys is setup to let white people get away with murdering blacks.

I guess if he was protesting racial injustice at the time, he'd have been fair game?  ???
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Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #151 on: November 24, 2021, 07:24:24 PM »

If you are going to kill a thug it better be clearly in self defense as you are trying to escape.

The system is working overtime to protect the thugs from retaliation.

Hate to say it, but a not guilty in this case probably would have been like declaring open season on thugs in some areas.

One of the things keeping people from cleaning up their neighborhoods is the police and court system treating them harshly if it looks like vigilante justice.

Even in clear cut cases the legal process is the punishment.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

Hawkmoon

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #152 on: November 24, 2021, 07:40:17 PM »

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/ahmaud-arbery-killing-trial-verdict-watch-11-24-21/h_61c9715b10cc24cad69318a030329d21

All three defendants guility of the murder of Mr. Arbery.

I don't get it. Not that I don't think they're guilty, but how do you get FOUR murder charges, two assault charges, AND an unlawful imprisonment charge out of shooting ONE guy?

Would somebody 'splain me that, please?

Ben

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #153 on: November 24, 2021, 08:00:14 PM »

I don't get it. Not that I don't think they're guilty, but how do you get FOUR murder charges,

Actually five. One count malice murder, four counts felony murder.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #154 on: November 24, 2021, 08:03:07 PM »

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sumpnz

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #155 on: November 24, 2021, 08:16:13 PM »

Actually five. One count malice murder, four counts felony murder.

There were 3 defendants so 1 each makes sense.  Were there some lesser included offenses, like with Chauvin?

sumpnz

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #156 on: November 24, 2021, 08:22:12 PM »

As far as the shooters go, legally I have seen nothing yet that puts them in a righteous light.  No matter the black guy's criminal record, or if he had been trespassing, or even if he was guilty of recent burglaries in the area, I haven't seen any information that the attempted detention was in any way legally justified.  The GA statute on citizen arrest is pretty clear, and even giving all possible charitable interpretations of the events this far disclosed, they didn't meet the requirements for a legal citizen arrest.  Certainly once they brandished their firearms they became the instigators of violence, and Arbery would have been fully justified in using deadly force to resist attempted false imprisonment or even attempted kidnapping, and definitely assault with a deadly weapon.

The retired cop, at least, should have known better.

It would appear I called it correctly back when it first happened.

Ben

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #157 on: November 24, 2021, 09:14:32 PM »

There were 3 defendants so 1 each makes sense.  Were there some lesser included offenses, like with Chauvin?

My understanding is that the main guy, the son, got popped for all five.

Quote
Travis McMichael, who shot and killed Arbery, was convicted on all nine counts. Five of the counts malice murder and four counts of felony murder carry a possible life sentence.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/ahmaud-arbery-killing-trial-verdict-watch-11-24-21/index.html
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MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #158 on: November 24, 2021, 09:21:04 PM »

It would appear I called it correctly back when it first happened.
I don't think most of us thought it would be something they could get clear of.  They made themselves poster boys for the "what not to do" training.

They sort of did everything Zimmerman was accused of doing.  If someone with a shotgun asks you to go find a thief that ran down the road, say "No". 
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MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #159 on: November 24, 2021, 09:22:52 PM »

So is the 3rd guy the one that took the video?  Was he charged as an accessory?  I think I heard that, but I haven't been watching this case lately.


I don't think I agree that he should be tagged with murder, but that is the way the laws are set up. 
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Andiron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #160 on: November 24, 2021, 09:29:10 PM »

If you are going to kill a thug it better be clearly in self defense as you are trying to escape.

The system is working overtime to protect the thugs from retaliation.

Hate to say it, but a not guilty in this case probably would have been like declaring open season on thugs in some areas.

One of the things keeping people from cleaning up their neighborhoods is the police and court system treating them harshly if it looks like vigilante justice.

Even in clear cut cases the legal process is the punishment.

That leaves no incentive to trust the system to get it right.  Which is apparently what they want.

  So it's do nothing, ever, or take action and avoid the courts at all costs.  That's not a healthy place to be.
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MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #161 on: November 24, 2021, 09:31:42 PM »

That leaves no incentive to trust the system to get it right.  Which is apparently what they want.

  So it's do nothing, ever, or take action and avoid the courts at all costs.  That's not a healthy place to be.
And if you are in a group and one person steps over the line, everyone can get tagged with murder and whatever else they pile on. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #162 on: November 24, 2021, 09:56:21 PM »

They sort of did everything Zimmerman was accused of doing.  If someone with a shotgun asks you to go find a thief that ran down the road, say "No".


That's what I was thinking. Also, as the Left works itself into a feces-hurling tantrum about fictitious white vigilantism (in Kenosha), they seem to be ignoring a case that comes a lot closer to fitting that description. I guess they'd rather not talk about the fact that, even in the Deep South, whites actually do face very harsh consequences when they commit crimes against blacks. It's like their white supremacy narrative is all a myth, if you can imagine that.
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Andiron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #163 on: November 24, 2021, 10:12:21 PM »

And if you are in a group and one person steps over the line, everyone can get tagged with murder and whatever else they pile on.

Hell,  even if you're not in whatever group they currently hate,  they'll just add you to it.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #164 on: November 24, 2021, 10:57:40 PM »

There were 3 defendants so 1 each makes sense.  Were there some lesser included offenses, like with Chauvin?

MillCreek's link explains it: https://www.11alive.com/article/news/crime/ahmaud-arbery/malice-murder-felony-murder-difference-ahmaud-arbery-death-trial/85-d13db692-cff9-4b4d-be73-5eba5ae22054

It still seems to me like it's piling on. I understand -- and subscribe to -- the concept of people who participate in a crime that results in the death of another person being charged with murder. And if tweo people die, I can see and support two charges.

But when ONE person dies and they take each little criminal act anyone present committed and make EVERY one of those a concomitant murder charge -- I think that's overdoing it.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #165 on: November 24, 2021, 10:59:49 PM »

So is the 3rd guy the one that took the video?  Was he charged as an accessory?  I think I heard that, but I haven't been watching this case lately.


Yes, and yes.

charby

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #166 on: November 25, 2021, 01:21:46 AM »

And if you are in a group and one person steps over the line, everyone can get tagged with murder and whatever else they pile on.

Welcome to Georgia, don't participate in fuckery. State's Rights!
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Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #167 on: November 25, 2021, 01:01:54 PM »

Nobody, including the dead guy, made any good decisions that day.

 
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

WLJ

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #168 on: January 07, 2022, 03:55:37 PM »

Quote
Three white men who chased and killed Ahmaud Arbery were sentenced Friday to life in prison, with a judge denying any chance of parole for the father and son who armed themselves and initiated the deadly pursuit of the 25-year-old Black man.

Ahmaud Arbery killers get life in prison; no parole for father, son
https://www.wlky.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-killing-sentencing/38690642

And not to change the subject but note again how black is capitalized but not white in the article
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 04:18:52 PM by WLJ »
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Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #169 on: January 07, 2022, 04:22:07 PM »

Unlike some communities the White community doesn't get riled up about guys paying a price for bad decisions.

The problem is the system is pushing, pushing, pushing. A segment of the country is pushing, pushing, pushing.

Many White folks are slowly waking up to find that their government and many fellow citizens hate them, or at least have arrayed themselves as enemies of white Americans and their culture.

This is not a good thing, at some point the battle will be joined. I personally hope I'm not around to see what that looks like. Boxing people in and giving them no official recourse is a bad thing to do, gaslighting only goes so far.

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

T.O.M.

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #170 on: January 07, 2022, 04:23:02 PM »

Sorry.  Been away for a bit.  As one of the resident legal beagles here at APS, I'll throw in my two cents on the charges here.  The piling on is the prosecution putting alternate charges in front of the jury.  Kind of saying "if not Charge A, consider Charge B or C".  When the jury deliberated, they can find guilty of all, none, or some of the charges.  When the jury finds guilty of multiple charges, as happened here, the judge will then merge charges and/or vacate charges, depending on how they overlap.  If you listen to the sentencing, the judge vacated a lot of the charges by operation of law because of the conviction of the one murder charge.  The "lesser" murder charges got kicked by the judge.  The merger applied on some, where the conviction of the higher charge incorporated the lower charge (often see this in Burglary cases, where a theft charge ends up merged into the Burglary at sentencing).  The "problem", if you will, is that prosecutors any more throw any possible charge at a situation, to either give negotiating room for plea bargaining or to give them more chance of getting a conviction at trial.  I blame this on prosecutors who keep conviction stats of their staff and use that for promotions, pay raises, etc.  But, since conviction rates get brought up so often in elections, I guess that matters to the public. In my opinion, if plea bargaining went away, prosecutors had to open their file (more or less) in the discovery process, you would have charges based only on what actually happened, eliminate this stacking of charges, and there would be better results for both sides.

As for the felony murder rule, my understanding is that this guy wasn't just there.  He was actively pursuing Arbury, and worked to get him cornered between the two vehicles.  In other words, he did an affirmative act in commission of the felony (Unlawful Arrest/Detaining) that resulted in the death.

IMHO, this case was correctly prosecuted and sentenced, given the facts of the case as I understand them.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 07:12:01 PM by T.O.M. »
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Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #171 on: January 07, 2022, 04:33:34 PM »

^ I don't really disagree.

The disconnect is how different communities are having different standards applied.

Ironically, the inner city Black community seems to feel they are held to a higher standard of behavior.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

Perd Hapley

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #172 on: January 07, 2022, 05:51:20 PM »

Can we stop capitalizing skin colors?
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Ron

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #173 on: January 07, 2022, 06:03:26 PM »

Can we stop capitalizing skin colors?

I'm sure the average Black person couldn't care less whether it is capitalized or not.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

MechAg94

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Re: Jogger shot in Georgia
« Reply #174 on: January 07, 2022, 06:33:56 PM »

Sorry.  Been away for a bit.  As one of the resident legal beagles here at APS, I'll throw in my two cents on the charges here.  The piling on is the prosecution putting alternate charges in front of the jury.  Kind of saying "if not Charge A, consider Charge B or C".  When the jury deliberated, they can find guilty of all, none, or some of the charges.  When the jury finds guilty of multiple charges, as happened here, the judge will then merge charges and/or vacate charges, depending on how they overlap.  If you listen to the sentencing, the judge vacated a lot of the charges by operation of law because of the conviction of the one murder charge.  The "lesser" murder charges got kicked by the judge.  The merger applied on some, where the conviction of the higher charge incorporated the lower charge (often see this in Burglary cases, where a theft charge ends up merged into the Burglary at sentencing).  The "problem", if you will, is that prosecutors any more throw any possible charge at a situation, to either give negotiating room for plea bargaining or to give them more chance of getting a conviction at trial.  I blame this on prosecutors who keep conviction stats of their staff and use that for promotions, pay raises, etc.  But, since conviction rates get brought up so often in elections, I guess that matters to the public. In my opinion, if plea bargaining went away, prosecutors had to open their file (more or less) in the discovery process, you would have charges based only on what actually happened, eliminate this stacking of charges, and there would be better results for both sides.

As for the felony murder rule, my understanding is that this guy wasn't just there.  He was actively pursuing Albert, and worked to get him cornered between the two vehicles.  In other words, he did an affirmative act in commission of the felony (Unlawful Arrest/Detaining) that resulted in the death.

IMHO, this case was correctly prosecuted and sentenced, given the facts of the case as I understand them.
I think the bold part is a good proposal.  In addition to the prosecutor's file, all the evidence and paperwork should be public record once the case is over. 

IMO, I would rather hear prosecutors rated on number of cases processed and closed rather than convictions.  I think convictions is more about what they think voters want to hear than what they actually want. 
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