Jogger shot in Georgia

[De Selby]

It’s hard to believe watching the video, but it does seem like this trio genuinely believed they hadn’t done anything wrong. Just goes to show how possible it is to be totally out of step with what your community believes - a lesson for people everywhere really.

The criminal justice system cannot function without plea bargaining because of the sheer volume of cases it deals with.

The only non-penal system answer the rest of the world seems to have found to crime is the welfare state - populations with guaranteed housing, food, education, healthcare and basic access to income support tend not to commit lots of violent crime.

[Bogie]

If you're gonna go jogging, don't trespass on construction sites.
 
If you notice someone trespassing, call the cops, and watch from your living room.

[Hawkmoon]

The only non-penal system answer the rest of the world seems to have found to crime is the welfare state - populations with guaranteed housing, food, education, healthcare and basic access to income support tend not to commit lots of violent crime.

FYI, a VERY large percentage of the crime in American cities is committed by beneficiaries of the welfare state -- people who live in public housing, receive welfare payments, receive food stamps (or whatever they use in lieu of food stamps these days), and who don't pay anything for medical care.

[Boomhauer]

It’s hard to believe watching the video, but it does seem like this trio genuinely believed they hadn’t done anything wrong. Just goes to show how possible it is to be totally out of step with what your community believes - a lesson for people everywhere really.

The criminal justice system cannot function without plea bargaining because of the sheer volume of cases it deals with.

The only non-penal system answer the rest of the world seems to have found to crime is the welfare state - populations with guaranteed housing, food, education, healthcare and basic access to income support tend not to commit lots of violent crime.

In the US the group that gets all that and more is the same group that is career criminal as *expletive deleted*ck and the local popo visit them weekly. 

[MechAg94]

In the US the group that gets all that and more is the same group that is career criminal as *expletive deleted*ck and the local popo visit them weekly.

I agree with that.  All the free stuff does nothing but enable the bad behavior.  It may only be percentage of the population, but it is there. 

I think humans who have all their basic food/shelter needs met are not automatically passive and content.  I would bet people like that are likely more discontent. 

[sumpnz]

I agree with that.  All the free stuff does nothing but enable the bad behavior.  It may only be percentage of the population, but it is there. 

I think humans who have all their basic food/shelter needs met are not automatically passive and content.  I would bet people like that are likely more discontent. 

Idle hands are the devil’s workshop.

[HankB]

If you're gonna go jogging, don't trespass on construction sites.
 
If you notice someone trespassing, call the cops, and watch from your living room.

That's not bad advice.

Based on over a half century of personal experience, when a new house is going up, quite a few of the locals will take a walk through it, at least until the windows and doors are put in. (Builders usually use a "construction door" rather than the fancy door installed at completion.) If there are children in the neighborhood, it's a magnet for them. Problems arise if the locals decide to do things like strip out the copper pipes - but the doors are usually on before plumbing is done and appliances are installed. When the last houses were built on my block, most of the neighbors went through them at some point in the construction process - no problems AFAIK. But of course, I live in a very "low crime" area.

Usually its no problem - in fact, from news accounts on TV, while security cam footage showed the jogger in a house under construction, it didn't show him stealing or vandalizing it. So maybe he trespassed, which for a residential construction site is a petty crime at worst. Most likely police would tell him "don't do it again" and not arrest or ticket him unless he goes in it again after explicitly being warned away. (Unless trespassing = insurrection?)

[MillCreek]

^^^When my wife and I were house hunting, we would wander in and out of houses under construction all the time, at least until the stage that doors were in and locked.  Looking at layouts gave us some idea of what we wanted.

[Fly320s]

If you're gonna go jogging, don't trespass on construction sites.

The jogger in this case wasn't trespassing. 

[Hawkmoon]

The jogger in this case wasn't trespassing.

He wasn't?

Video clearly showed him wandering around (and I think in) the house that was under construction. The only way that wasn't trespassing would be if he had the owner's permission to be there. Are you saying that he had such permission?

[zxcvbob]

He wasn't?

Video clearly showed him wandering around (and I think in) the house that was under construction. The only way that wasn't trespassing would be if he had the owner's permission to be there. Are you saying that he had such permission?

He might be making a distinction between criminal and civil trespass.  I'm not sure what the rules are, but was the property posted?

[MillCreek]

He wasn't?

Video clearly showed him wandering around (and I think in) the house that was under construction. The only way that wasn't trespassing would be if he had the owner's permission to be there. Are you saying that he had such permission?

If he was trespassing, does that justify what happened to him?

[sumpnz]

If he was trespassing, does that justify what happened to him?

No, hence the convictions and life sentences.

That doesn’t alter his being guilty of trespass, and possibly prior burglary.

[Ben]

He wasn't trespassing when he was shot.

That said, I may be misremembering, but it seemed I saw a video that made it look like he was in someone's house undergoing a remodel in an already developed neighborhood. That's akin to me finding someone poking around out in my shop simply because the rollup door was open.  That is a "my gun is already out" situation, especially where I live, where there is no help for me readily available. Not that I would come out guns blazing, but I would be in condition orange with my gun visible while I question/assess from a distance.

If he was in an in-progress housing development that was under construction, while I'm sure the "trespassing philosophy" varies geographically, I know that a lot of people do what Millcreek mentioned. While I assume that is still trespassing in the letter of the law, it may or may not be looked at as trespassing by various individuals affected. The homebuilder may look at it as "advertising" regarding what Millcreek did, but would still consider kids playing in the unfinished homes trespassing.

[230RN]

De Selby correctly observed:

"The criminal justice system cannot function without plea bargaining because of the sheer volume of cases it deals with."

If I may get on my rocking horse again, although it doesn't directly matter in this case:

We need fewer laws.

You elect these people as lawmakers and guess what?  They make laws.  De Selby brought it up; I'm just pointing out a cause and a simple solution.

Terry dismounts.

[Hawkmoon]

If he was trespassing, does that justify what happened to him?

No, and I didn't imply that it did.

[Hawkmoon]

De Selby correctly observed:

"The criminal justice system cannot function without plea bargaining because of the sheer volume of cases it deals with."

If I may get on my rocking horse again, although it doesn't directly matter in this case:

We need fewer laws.

You elect these people as lawmakers and guess what?  They make laws.  De Selby brought it up; I'm just pointing out a cause and a simple solution.

Consider that an alternate possibility is that fewer criminals would be repeat-repeat-repeat offenders if they were properly incarcerated for long sentences upon their first conviction. Crime feeds on plea bargains, and the "need" for plea bargains becomes a self-perpetuating monster.

The current movement among liberal prosecutors and judges to simply eliminate bail and not press charges for anything less serious than mass murders is only going to increase crime -- as we are already seeing.

[Fly320s]

He wasn't?

Video clearly showed him wandering around (and I think in) the house that was under construction. The only way that wasn't trespassing would be if he had the owner's permission to be there. Are you saying that he had such permission?

Yes, he entered a building under construction, but since the property wasn't posted (AFAIK) that isn't trespassing.  Just like a stranger walking up your door isn't trespassing.

[zxcvbob]

Yes, he entered a building under construction, but since the property wasn't posted (AFAIK) that isn't trespassing.  Just like a stranger walking up your door isn't trespassing.

I don't think that's an apt analogy, unless that stranger had to climb over a fence because the gate was locked.  Arbery actually entered the building.  (counter-argument is that the building is not a "dwelling" yet, so is not different than the yard)

1) He shouldn't have been there.
2) It's debatable whether it was illegal or not, but even if it was it's a very minor offense.  Police would have probably just told him to leave, if they bothered to do anything at all.

I suspect he was up to no good.  Maybe casing the place to come back later and steal stuff.  Doesn't really matter.

[Ben]

I don't think that's an apt analogy,

Agree. A stranger walking up to my door is walking up to an implied barrier, whether the door is open or not. Same if a Jehovah's Witness walks up your walkway past your open garage door. If they enter the garage, they've just crossed a boundary.

I'm not sure how THE law works regarding that in various jurisdictions, but under Ben's law, my doors are barriers. Outside is not inside. I will handle a knock on the front door differently than a stranger standing in my garage or my backyard after they went through a gate. It doesn't mean I'm gonna pull on them, but they will not be handled equally regarding friendliness.

[T.O.M.]

The current movement among liberal prosecutors and judges to simply eliminate bail and not press charges for anything less serious than mass murders is only going to increase crime -- as we are already seeing.

There is plenty of blame to go around, so let's add legislators for passing laws requiring probation for "low level" and "property offenses," while at the same time creating mandatory sentences that take the discretion away from judges to decide punishment based on the actual case at bar.  And, let's also add appellate and Supreme Court judges who are out of touch with reality and mandate new rules and procedures that further tie up an overburdened system.  I could go on and on, but the point is made.  The system is spinning around the bowl, headed towards the drain, and the criminals are taking advantage.

[dogmush]

I thought  we argued this at the beginning of this thread.  [Shrug]  the relevant GA statute:

(a) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she intentionally damages any property of another without consent of that other person and the damage thereto is $500.00 or less or knowingly and maliciously interferes with the possession or use of the property of another person without consent of that person.

(b) A person commits the offense of criminal trespass when he or she knowingly and without authority:

(1) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person for an unlawful purpose;

(2) Enters upon the land or premises of another person or into any part of any vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving, prior to such entry, notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant that such entry is forbidden; or

(3) Remains upon the land or premises of another person or within the vehicle, railroad car, aircraft, or watercraft of another person after receiving notice from the owner, rightful occupant, or, upon proper identification, an authorized representative of the owner or rightful occupant to depart.

No damage was done to the house, so (a) doesn't apply.  The owner of the property has publicly said it wasn't posted, and he never told Aurbury not to be there so (b) 2 and 3 don't  apply.  b (1) requires the entry to be made for an unlawful purpose, which doesn't seem to be the case.  Certainly several folks had said he may have been casing the place but I've not seen any evidence to support that.  Short of an unlawful purpose it's very likely  that he wasn't trespassing at all, and indeed had done nothing illegal during  the jog.  So even if the idiots hadn't screwed up the citizen's arrest,  they would have been on the hook for kidnapping or unlawful detention.

I know I said it earlier,  but I jog with a CCW.  If three idiots run me off the road in a pickup, then jump out with shotguns, the gunfight is on. As more evidence has come out in this one I've come to the opinion that it's a shame Aurbury didn't cap all three of them and save the taxpayers the bill for for their prison time.

That doesn't even touch the issue that the dad was an ex-cop.  You'll never convince me that he wasn't doing things like this to abuse his authority when he had a badge as well.

[gunsmith]

I thought  we argued this at the beginning of this thread.  [Shrug]  the relevant GA statute:



That doesn't even touch the issue that the dad was an ex-cop.  You'll never convince me that he wasn't doing things like this to abuse his authority when he had a badge as well.

oooh, good point, he was so used to doing whatever the heck he wanted that he forgot he lacked qualified imunity

[MechAg94]

I thought  we argued this at the beginning of this thread.  [Shrug]  the relevant GA statute:

No damage was done to the house, so (a) doesn't apply.  The owner of the property has publicly said it wasn't posted, and he never told Aurbury not to be there so (b) 2 and 3 don't  apply.  b (1) requires the entry to be made for an unlawful purpose, which doesn't seem to be the case.  Certainly several folks had said he may have been casing the place but I've not seen any evidence to support that.  Short of an unlawful purpose it's very likely  that he wasn't trespassing at all, and indeed had done nothing illegal during  the jog.  So even if the idiots hadn't screwed up the citizen's arrest,  they would have been on the hook for kidnapping or unlawful detention.

I know I said it earlier,  but I jog with a CCW.  If three idiots run me off the road in a pickup, then jump out with shotguns, the gunfight is on. As more evidence has come out in this one I've come to the opinion that it's a shame Aurbury didn't cap all three of them and save the taxpayers the bill for for their prison time.

That doesn't even touch the issue that the dad was an ex-cop.  You'll never convince me that he wasn't doing things like this to abuse his authority when he had a badge as well.

I didn't watch the trial coverage.  Can someone summarize what that new evidence is?  I am wondering if there was something I missed.


The one thing I remember is there was a video that was supposedly Aurbury in another incident with a cop that showed he was a very aggressive person.  I can see where these guys were expected a certain reaction from Aurbury when they chased him down.  Instead of running or being scared, he attacked and ended up getting shot.  Since these guys were playing vigilante and took video of it, the legal system gave it too them good and hard. 

[dogmush]

And why shouldn't he be aggressive?  He was outnumbered and ougunned. Flight had effectively been cut off, and they had proven willing to chase you down with a truck.  Fight is pretty much all that's left. That or surrender and hope they don't do anything to you.

Anyone here have "surrender and hope for the best" on their self defense tactics?