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Author Topic: Chicago  (Read 4513 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2020, 01:16:14 PM »

As for the "facts" of whether my house is broken into... this is the same slope as the rape accusation.  And I don't mean to put this indelicately, but allowing an assertion of a crime to have been committed stand as proof per se of a crime having been committed is a dangerous precedent.  And allowing the State to be the sole arbiter of prosecutable offenses is rife for abuse (as we see in the Chicago DA's discrimination in case selection).

You continue to parse the question to fit your answer.

You take your family on a vacation trip. You are absent from your home for two weeks. Would you consider that a fact, or an allegation?

You return home to find the front door open, the frame shattered, and the lock broken. Would you consider that a fact, or an allegation?

Upon entering the house, you find your belongings strewn all over in a random heap of chaos. Would you consider that a fact, or an allegation?

After taking inventory, you find that your wife's jewelry, your power tools, all the computers, and the wide-screen television are gone. Would you consider that a fact, or an allegation?


My view is that each if these items is something that can be verified, and is therefore a fact. Your position is that (other than perhaps the vacation trip itself) is nothing but an allegation. We are going to have to agree to disagree.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2020, 01:29:33 PM »

Let's look at Arizona statutes:

Third degree burglary: https://azleg.gov/ars/13/01506.htm

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13-1506. Burglary in the third degree; classification

A. A person commits burglary in the third degree by:

1. Entering or remaining unlawfully in or on a nonresidential structure or in a fenced commercial or residential yard with the intent to commit any theft or any felony therein.

2. Making entry into any part of a motor vehicle by means of a manipulation key or master key, with the intent to commit any theft or felony in the motor vehicle.

B. Burglary in the third degree is a class 4 felony.

The statute defines a criminal offense. Nothing in the definition requires an arrest, a charge, or a conviction in order for the crime to have been committed.

Second degree burglary: https://azleg.gov/ars/13/01507.htm

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13-1507. Burglary in the second degree; classification

A. A person commits burglary in the second degree by entering or remaining unlawfully in or on a residential structure with the intent to commit any theft or any felony therein.

B. Burglary in the second degree is a class 3 felony.

The statute defines a criminal offense. Nothing in the definition requires an arrest, a charge, or a conviction in order for the crime to have been committed.

First degree burglary: https://azleg.gov/ars/13/01508.htm

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13-1508. Burglary in the first degree; classification

A. A person commits burglary in the first degree if such person or an accomplice violates the provisions of either section 13-1506 or 13-1507 and knowingly possesses explosives, a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument in the course of committing any theft or any felony.

B. Burglary in the first degree of a nonresidential structure or a fenced commercial or residential yard is a class 3 felony. It is a class 2 felony if committed in a residential structure.

The statute defines a criminal offense. Nothing in the definition requires an arrest, a charge, or a conviction in order for the crime to have been committed.

The crime exists -- as a crime, not as an "allegation" -- when the action(s) set forth in the statute occur. This is a matter of definition, by state law. If someone does any of the things set forth in those sections of statute, they have committed the crime defined by the statute. There is no "allegation" involved. The crime is a crime if the act fits the statute.

Where allegation enters in is when someone is suspected of being the perpetrator of the crime. I see this confusion in news reports all the time. Alleged journalists will report that the First National Bank was allegedly robbed and that Joe Blow had been arrested and charged. This is incorrect. That the bank was robbed is a fact, not an allegation. The allegation (until a trial and conviction) is that it was Joe Blow who perpetrated the robbery.

WLJ

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2020, 02:01:44 PM »

So if I post and no one reads it did I post?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2020, 02:22:45 PM »

Correct.

But none of those are "burglary."  They're distinctly burglary1/2/3.

When your house is broken into, there is no crime of "burglary" according to the state.  It's undefined.  It has to be B1/2/3.

B1/B2 differ based on residential vs non residential property, or a vehicle.  But B3 requires knowing if the person had a weapon on them.

You don't know if B1/B2 or B3 was committed, without greater evidence.  It's not just "burglary."  Doesn't exist as a crime according to the State.

Similarly, in context of the OP and the Chicago DA issue, "murder" doesn't exist.
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Jim147

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2020, 02:43:50 PM »

This is heading Cornbread.

I'll check back in a couple days and see if this gets back to normal drift.
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And sometimes goes on and on and on.

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Fly320s

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2020, 05:28:26 PM »

You can't have cornbread without conviction.  I am convinced Jiffy mix is not cornbread.  =D
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230RN

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2020, 05:36:18 PM »

Hawkmoon

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2020, 06:41:02 PM »


B1/B2 differ based on residential vs non residential property, or a vehicle.  But B3 requires knowing if the person had a weapon on them.

You don't know if B1/B2 or B3 was committed, without greater evidence.  It's not just "burglary."  Doesn't exist as a crime according to the State.


Your original contention was that a crime doesn't exist until someone has been convicted of it.

The law defines the crime. Regardless of whether it's burglary 1, 2, or 3 ... when someone commits it, the crime exists. It doesn't hang around in the ether until someone gets convicted, then miraculously become a crime.

B3 (B1, actually) does not require knowing if the person had a deadly weapon on him. If he commits a burglary while carrying a deadly weapon, he commits burglary in the first degree. You don't have to know he had the weapon, I don't have to know he had the weapon, the police don't have to know he had the weapon. The law defines the crime -- if he committed a burglary while armed with a deadly weapon, he committed burglary in the first degree. Period, full stop -- by definition. If he disposes of the weapon before he is apprehended, or if he never gets caught, that doesn't mean he didn't commit burglary in the first degree. It just means that either the state can't prove the weapons part ... or the burglar never got caught.

Ron

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2020, 08:31:03 AM »

My lady friend had her son over last night. We hung out on the patio and enjoyed the lovely evening.

He lives in downtown Chicago.

It took him an hour and a half to get to get home to his condo on the lakefront last night, normally a 1/2 hour 45 min trip at that time of night on a Sunday.

All the exits from the expressways were blocked with snowplows and police cars.

They had the whole city in lock down.

Make the cities unlivable and the lefty Dems will move out to the Republican suburbs. Cynical thought I know ...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

WLJ

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2022, 08:31:12 AM »

Meanwhile Lightfoot has a 90 person security detail

While Chicagoans Live With Fewer Cops & More Crime, Mayor Lightfoot Has a 90-Person Security Detail
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/while-chicagoans-live-with-fewer-cops-more-crime-mayor-lightfoot-has-a-90-person-security-detail/

Dozens of Chicago cops guard mayor and family in below-the-radar security unit created in 2020
https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2022/3/28/22985559/mayor-lightfoot-security-dozens-chicago-cops-guard-mayor-family-below-radar-security-unit
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HankB

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2022, 09:19:37 AM »

Chicago mayors have always had large security details.

Mayor Daley (the original, not the kid) lived half a block or so away from a police station, but there was still a police car parked both in front of the house and in the alley behind 24/7 whether he was home or not. A good part of his entourage was police, either uniformed or plain clothes.

Mayor Jane Byrne made a big deal out of moving into the Cabrini-Green housing project for a while, one of the most notoriously crime-ridden housing projects in the city. When she was outside, she was surrounded by a ring of cops 2 or 3 deep. Cops were all over the place - constant roving foot patrols in stairwells, corridors, etc. Residents LOVED it, since they'd never SEEN so many cops in one place. Crime dropped to zero . . . until the day she moved out.

Neither one of those mayors had the "anti-cop" reputation of Mr/Mrs/Whatever Lightfoot.
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WLJ

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2022, 09:26:40 AM »


Neither one of those mayors had the "anti-cop" reputation of Mr/Mrs/Whatever Lightfoot.

Which is the point
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2022, 10:32:03 PM »

I do not own a boat. I still have all my guns, cuz this is America.

WLJ

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2022, 07:11:21 PM »

As long as the fellow gang member you're with is 18 or older you're golden

Quote
    We want our young people to have fun this summer and enjoy all the activities that our City has to offer. To ensure safety while doing so, anyone under the age of 18 must be accompanied by an adult after 6 p.m. Let's work together to have a safe and great summer, Chicago.

    — Lori Lightfoot (@LoriLightfoot) May 20, 2022
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/05/20/lori-lightfoot-announces-an-insane-curfew-with-an-even-more-insane-loophole-for-anyone-under-the-age-of-18-to-curb-gun-violence/

But then she deleted it
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WLJ

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2022, 07:14:08 PM »

And this was further down

Quote
    So far this year, there have been 10 mass shootings in Chicago. By comparison, there have been three in NYC and two in LA. Find out more: https://t.co/MJz3R9U43y pic.twitter.com/2OcK5ePuHM

    — CBS Chicago (@cbschicago) May 20, 2022

But barely a peep out of the MSM while Buffalo gets wall to wall coverage
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WLJ

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #65 on: May 20, 2022, 07:29:35 PM »

Year To Date
Shot & Killed: 209
Shot & Wounded: 890
Total Shot: 1099
Total Homicides: 231

https://heyjackass.com/
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Jim147

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #66 on: May 20, 2022, 08:17:12 PM »

There was just a mass shooting yesterday but not much news about it.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

HankB

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2022, 08:20:14 PM »

There was just a mass shooting yesterday but not much news about it.
Not much news about it? Hmmmm . . . wonder what demographic the shooter was part of . . .
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Those who work for a living are being BURIED by those who vote for a living.
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Lennyjoe

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2022, 07:14:07 AM »

230RN

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2022, 12:31:23 PM »

I was born and raised in Chicago, but moved away decades ago, way back in the 20th Century.

Me, too, New York City, mid-sixties.

Quote
I personally saw how government veered between crooked and dysfunctional back then and I don't think things have improved with time - quite the contrary, the downward spiral has continued....

The New York City citizen's subject's viewpoint is still  "You can't fight City Hall.."

WLJ

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2022, 04:30:02 PM »

For those who keep bringing up Chicago AOC blames Indiana

Quote
    AOC: "There’s no discussion about gun violence in Chicago without talking about Indiana, because the violence and the mothers that we have to comfort are losing children due to the guns and the carnage and the lawlessness unleashed by those states." pic.twitter.com/4B7hXatqnx

    — Tom Elliott (@tomselliott) June 8, 2022

So why is the problem in Chicago and not Indiana?
She's not the first one to blame Indiana

AOC says we can’t have a gun discussion about Chicago without talking about Indiana
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/06/08/aoc-says-we-cant-have-a-gun-discussion-about-chicago-without-talking-about-indiana/
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 05:14:31 PM by WLJ »
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K Frame

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2022, 05:13:26 PM »

For years Virginia heard the same thing from the local elected scumbags in Washington, DC...

Basically "the only reason we can't control our feral hoodrats is because of Virginia's loose gun laws!"
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HankB

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2022, 06:21:05 PM »

If loose gun laws in Indiana are the source of Chicago's crime - why isn't Indiana's crime even worse - much worse - than Chicago's?

Gary, Indiana, isn't exactly the nicest city in the Midwest, but then again, it's right next door to Chicago.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Those who work for a living are being BURIED by those who vote for a living.
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

K Frame

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2022, 06:23:54 PM »

"If loose gun laws in Indiana are the source of Chicago's crime - why isn't Indiana's crime even worse - much worse - than Chicago's?"

Funny, no one in Washington, DC, could ever answer that question, even though it was asked over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over...

Just constant "YOUR GUNS ARE THE ROOT OF OUR PROBLEM!"

Sure they are... sure they are.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Chicago
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2022, 06:43:21 PM »

For years Virginia heard the same thing from the local elected scumbags in Washington, DC...

Basically "the only reason we can't control our feral hoodrats is because of Virginia's loose gun laws!"

Oh, hell -- Bloomberg blamed New York's "gun violence" on Virginia.
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