Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against “Ghost Guns”

[RocketMan]

I wonder how long until 3D printers become restricted?

Excellent question.  It won't be long I would imagine, a couple of years at most.
Once the Dems have packed the SCOTUS I expect them to unleash a *expletive deleted*it ton of unconstitutional stuff on the country.

[dogmush]

Just got a Classic Firearms E-mail advertising the Polymer80 Glock kits  

Classic isn't selling the kit, they are just selling the frame and rail set, which has an ATF determination letter as "not a firearm".


To be clear:

ATF has said in this raid that doing nothing more than putting a bunch of non firearm parts in a box, manufactures the firearm.

P80 frame kit: not a firearm.
Glock slide/barrel/recoil spring: not a firearm.
Glock lower parts kit: not a firearm.

Those three parts in a priority mail box: Firearm!

The agents that served this warrant, and the judge who signed it, should be doxxed, protests outside their homes, not allowed to eat in a restaurant,  and any business that serves them should be boycotted.   Their spouses employers should be spammed, and if their kids are in a private school, it should be doxxed and have it's funding threatened.  They should have not a moment's peace until they prostrate themselves in the public square and beg forgiveness., and only then should we allow them and their families to slink back I to obscurity and never again touch a lever of governmental power.

[AmbulanceDriver]

The solvent trap is basically a suppressor with no holes drilled through it.  Theoretically, you buy one with the intention of doing a form 1 to build a suppressor.  From what I have seen, they don't perform well.  On the oil filters, I once saw a serial numbered muzzle device you could thread an oil filter onto.  I don't think they allow you to do that anymore.

Mrgunsngear did these videos recently.
Solvent Trap Silencers: Do They Actually Work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKRjaT9PVGo

Oil Filter As A Silencer: Does It Really Work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EExnpnXW7Wc

On the key hanger, there was a guy on some forum who was selling plastic wall hangers that were 3D printed.  Part of the hanger was the plastic piece needed to make a Glock pistol full auto.  He was arrested as I heard it.

The one I saw a couple weeks ago was essentially a DIAS with an extra piece of (easily removable) plastic on there to make it hang over a door or similar.   I think it even had a couple of thin spots to indicate where to cut off the excess plastic. 

[HeroHog]

You can make one out of a coat hanger for the AR. 

[MechAg94]

Classic isn't selling the kit, they are just selling the frame and rail set, which has an ATF determination letter as "not a firearm".


To be clear:

ATF has said in this raid that doing nothing more than putting a bunch of non firearm parts in a box, manufactures the firearm.

P80 frame kit: not a firearm.
Glock slide/barrel/recoil spring: not a firearm.
Glock lower parts kit: not a firearm.

Those three parts in a priority mail box: Firearm!

The agents that served this warrant, and the judge who signed it, should be doxxed, protests outside their homes, not allowed to eat in a restaurant,  and any business that serves them should be boycotted.   Their spouses employers should be spammed, and if their kids are in a private school, it should be doxxed and have it's funding threatened.  They should have not a moment's peace until they prostrate themselves in the public square and beg forgiveness., and only then should we allow them and their families to slink back I to obscurity and never again touch a lever of governmental power.

That is what I heard in follow up videos.  Polymer80 is still in business and operating.  It was the complete kits the ATF didn't like.  I guess that kit had the tools, barrel, and all the stuff needed to build a pistol in one box and that got the ATF triggered. 

It seems to me they could have just sent a cease and desist letter, but I guess they could get hold of the customer information then.

[HankB]

The Glock conversion switches or the "hanger" that's really a DIAS to my eyes don't look legal. (They OUGHT to be, but by my understanding of the law, they aren't.) I can see probable cause for law enforcement action.

Unless there's something not yet publicized, the Polymer 80 raid on the other hand appears to be entirely bogus.

A lesson here is that when making a legal but bureaucratically disliked item, the sellers should keep business records, inventory, etc. off site . . . or at the very least securely encrypt their records.

[AZRedhawk44]

A lesson here is that when making a legal but bureaucratically disliked item, the sellers should keep business records, inventory, etc. off site . . . or at the very least securely encrypt their records.

Or not keep them at all.

I favor VPN vendors that keep no logs.

I see no reason for a vendor to keep itemized sales records of not-firearms in such a way that a 1:1 correlation of sales and shipped addresses can be reconstructed.  Particularly with a product that is intended to anonymize firearms ownership as its primary function.

I grok that for tax/accounting reasons you need itemized transactions.  But outside of 30 days of shipping, there's no reason to not just delete the customer identifiable data from your system.  I rather doubt the company offers some sort of warranty on a DIY pistol frame kit.

[Hawkmoon]

You can make one out of a coat hanger for the AR. 

When I was in the Army, my First Sergeant showed me how to use a short length of dog tag chain to convert an M1 Carbine to full auto. It's probably a good thing that I don't remember how he did it.

[dogmush]

Or not keep them at all.

I favor VPN vendors that keep no logs.

I see no reason for a vendor to keep itemized sales records of not-firearms in such a way that a 1:1 correlation of sales and shipped addresses can be reconstructed.  Particularly with a product that is intended to anonymize firearms ownership as its primary function.

I grok that for tax/accounting reasons you need itemized transactions.  But outside of 30 days of shipping, there's no reason to not just delete the customer identifiable data from your system.  I rather doubt the company offers some sort of warranty on a DIY pistol frame kit.

I agree on the customer records, but I thought I'd point out that P80 actually has a pretty good warranty.  Even if you *expletive deleted*ck it up, they have a decent record of sending you a new one, they just ask for pictures of your messed up frame cut up so you aren't getting two.  They are a solid company to do business with.

[AZRedhawk44]

I agree on the customer records, but I thought I'd point out that P80 actually has a pretty good warranty.  Even if you *expletive deleted*ck it up, they have a decent record of sending you a new one, they just ask for pictures of your messed up frame cut up so you aren't getting two.  They are a solid company to do business with.

I think in light of this raid, they'd do better to lower their prices a bit, and make a point of describing WHY they will no longer be keeping customer records and/or offering a warranty.

I'd be pissed if I had bought one of these and now the ATF is coming knocking on my door.  The whole point of buying one is to destroy the efficacy of any registry, even the distributed 4473 system.

[bedlamite]

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/polymer80-refuses-californias-subpoena-to-turn-over-customer-information/#axzz6gd1lkIGn

[AZRedhawk44]

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/polymer80-refuses-californias-subpoena-to-turn-over-customer-information/#axzz6gd1lkIGn

Good on them!

Now I want to buy one, and I don't particularly like Glocks.

I'll keep a couple hundred bucks earmarked for it, for the next time I go to a gun show or something.

[MechAg94]

Good on them!

Now I want to buy one, and I don't particularly like Glocks.

I'll keep a couple hundred bucks earmarked for it, for the next time I go to a gun show or something.

You can probably find a dealer in your area that has there stuff.  Brownells and MidwayUSA sell them I think.

[kgbsquirrel]

I think in light of this raid, they'd do better to lower their prices a bit, and make a point of describing WHY they will no longer be keeping customer records and/or offering a warranty.

I'd be pissed if I had bought one of these and now the ATF is coming knocking on my door.  The whole point of buying one is to destroy the efficacy of any registry, even the distributed 4473 system.

Perhaps that's why they have their panties in a bunch; how dare the proles take away their control.

[RocketMan]

I think the BATFE just wants fewer EBRs to account for when they begin confiscation.  The Dems have made their gun control desires very clear.

[dogmush]

Perhaps that's why they have their panties in a bunch; how dare the proles take away their control.

That's exactly their issue.

I think the BATFE just wants fewer EBRs to account for when they begin confiscation.  The Dems have made their gun control desires very clear.

These are Glocks, not EBRs.

I actually expect to see some action on making it illegal to manufacture a firearm without a license.  If they force everyone to get FFL's a lot of folks won't bother, and the ones that do won't be numerous enough to sustain this little niche market and the companies that make the unfinished receivers will go under.  Criminals will go back to stealing their guns, but this isn't about them anyway.  The Venn diagram of "people who build their own guns" and "people that are willing to shoot LEO's confiscating guns" is close to a circle, and they are trying to make it harder for those folks.

[RocketMan]

That's exactly their issue.

These are Glocks, not EBRs.

Matters little since they will be confiscating all semiautomatic firearms once they start.

[kgbsquirrel]

Matters little since they will be confiscating all semiautomatic firearms once they start.

[WLJ]

It does not appear that ATF considers standalone so-called “80% receivers” to be a “frame or receiver” regulated by the 1968 Gun Control Act. Retailers should consult with their attorney and/or contact ATF for guidance as to whether it may sell “Buy, Built and Shoot” kits and under what conditions. NSSF will continue to monitor this situation and report further as we learn more facts.

NSSF: Retailers Should Consult an Attorney Before Selling Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kits
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nssf-retailers-should-consult-an-attorney-before-selling-polymer80-buy-build-shoot-kits/

[dogmush]

NSSF: Retailers Should Consult an Attorney Before Selling Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kits
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nssf-retailers-should-consult-an-attorney-before-selling-polymer80-buy-build-shoot-kits/

*expletive deleted*ck'em.  That's exactly what they are trying to do.  Make everyone so scared they ask "mother may I?" before they do anything.  Do you ask the ATF before you sell pipe and nails?  What about endmills?  Do you ask for an ATF Determination before you sell yeast and sugar in the same transaction?

If the ATF wants to stop this, they need to issue a public determination on what "readily convertible" means so that there is a known standard and people can be non-criminal.  Then they can defend their opinion of "receiver" in court.

Until they give us a standard, they can GFSF on all their "we'd like you to..." *expletive deleted*it.  As can the industry [jack]boot lickers who are so worried about agents showing up. 

[Andiron]

The real solution here is the ATF needs to cease to exist.  One way or the other.

[WLJ]

Heard they're getting new uniforms in 2021

[kgbsquirrel]

The real solution here is the ATF needs to cease to exist.  One way or the other.

Correct. 

[dogmush]

More info:

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/stamps-com-authorize-net-rat-out-polymer80s-customers/#axzz6gsMrRwl8

It appears that P80 didn't provide the customer list the ATF is using, but rather the shipping and CC processors did.  Pretty hard to do business on the internet without taking cards or shipping stuff.

[Ben]

More info:

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/stamps-com-authorize-net-rat-out-polymer80s-customers/#axzz6gsMrRwl8

It appears that P80 didn't provide the customer list the ATF is using, but rather the shipping and CC processors did.  Pretty hard to do business on the internet without taking cards or shipping stuff.

That sucks.  I don't think there is a single CC company that wouldn't turn over data related to gun owners for pretty much any flimsy reason. I don't know where shippers stand on handing over info, whether gun related or other.

In some ways this method is worse than just the list related the P80 frame, because this can give them a full list of people who bought legal (for now) guns, parts, etc. It's certainly one reason I like to bring cash into the LGS, so nobody knows what guns I buy.