Author Topic: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something  (Read 2518 times)

WLJ

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Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« on: December 21, 2020, 08:51:01 AM »
Saw a video on this yesterday but kind of blew it off until I saw more on it but it's appears it's making the rounds now.
This is suppose to be coming from a former ATF agent but in a nutshell the AR-10/15 family of firearms have a split receiver(s) which means, according to the video, the lower does not meet the legal def of a firearm as spelled out in the Fed Gun Control Act of 1968. Apparently there's already been some court cases affirming this.
I'm not sure what effect(s) this could have on anything, it could be nothing or it could be huge. But ATF could just thumb their noses at it and/or the Dems could rush a new bill through. This also effects other "firearms" as well. Stay tune.


Former ATF Agent Testifies AR Receivers Don't Meet Legal Definition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dViQAjUmeJw
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 09:11:11 AM by WLJ »
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dogmush

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2020, 09:14:03 AM »
I've known about this for a while, but my understanding is there wasn't actually any court cases upholding it.....because ATF is known to drop criminal cases if it looks like they might get an actual ruling.

WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2020, 09:21:09 AM »
Instead of this hiding in the shadows this could now be front and center.
Of course how long would it take the dems to get a new what is firearm defining bill ready and passed? I fear many Rs will happily join in.
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charby

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2020, 09:45:59 AM »
You know my Benelli shotgun could fall under this too, it also has a split receiver.

The upper receiver with the bolt separates from the lower receiver (and trigger group) that has the serial number.



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dogmush

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2020, 10:05:32 AM »
You know my Benelli shotgun could fall under this too, it also has a split receiver.

The upper receiver with the bolt separates from the lower receiver (and trigger group) that has the serial number.


A TON of modern firearms would be affected by this.  Post WWII it became pretty popular have split receivers and trigger groups in one and barrels in the other.  It simplifies a lot of the "loading from a magazine" part if the barrel is above the magazine by a bit.  It also reduces sight height over bore (can reduce, don't come @ me with M16 carry handles), and in many cases helps with recoil management to have the barrel up a little higher. 

Off the top of my head guns that have one part to hold the barrel and bolt and another for the hammer:
FAL and variants
AR and variants
CETME/HK Roller locks
Uzis
MAC-10 and variants
(probably) M1/M14 and mini-14/30
SCAR
(probably) AUG
(probably) every hammer fired browning derived semi-auto pistol.

There's more, I'm sure, but it's probably easier to come up with a list of modern semi-auto firearms that DO have a NFA defined receiver.  AK family.  P90.  Tavor? (I've never taken one of those apart.

WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2020, 10:08:49 AM »
AK family.  P90.  Tavor? (I've never taken one of those apart.

Wouldn't effect those, all three have a one piece receiver
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cordex

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2020, 10:13:32 AM »
So what happens when the ATF says "Fine, then uppers and lowers are married and both have to be serialized"?

charby

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2020, 10:25:48 AM »
So what happens when the ATF says "Fine, then uppers and lowers are married and both have to be serialized"?

I hope not, as dogmush stated with a list of firearms, that would got back to over 100 years of firearms manufacturing.

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WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2020, 10:28:51 AM »
On second thought the Tavor may be effected by this. The rec is metal while the trigger pack is attached with two push out pins to the plastic shell around the rec and not inside the rec itself.  Grey area? But I'm entirely sure if they count the plastic shell as part of the rec or not. The Aug's and d P90's trigger packs slide out the back but I will have to pull mine out to see if they reside inside or outside of the actual rec
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 10:46:20 AM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2020, 10:46:02 AM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
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WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2020, 10:57:35 AM »
Straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote
The rifle’s one piece body is made using injection-molded, high-strength, impact-resistant, polymer. The polymer is a quarter of an inch thick and has a strong, rugged, even healthy feel to it. There is simply nothing weak or flimsy to be found anywhere on the body and you get the feeling that you could break down a door with it if needed.

The receiver is CNC machined using aerospace grade 7075-E6 hard-anodized aluminum coated in Teflonâ„¢. This premium aluminum alloy is chosen for its strength and resistance to fatigue. The truth is, no expense is spared when it comes to the rifles being used by Israel’s soldiers.

How it’s Made: Tavor
https://iwi.us/how-its-made-tavor/

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dogmush

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2020, 10:57:44 AM »
So what happens when the ATF says "Fine, then uppers and lowers are married and both have to be serialized"?

ATF can't rewrite the text of the law, or they would have already.  All they can do is what they've been doing, a hand-wavium "this is the receiver" and hope no one looks to closely.

cordex

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2020, 11:27:09 AM »
ATF can't rewrite the text of the law, or they would have already.  All they can do is what they've been doing, a hand-wavium "this is the receiver" and hope no one looks to closely.
Cool story, bro.  Now do bumpstocks.

WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2020, 11:30:30 AM »
Cool story, bro.  Now do bumpstocks.

Bump stocks got cleared with a letter from the ATF and got pulled by another letter.
What the ATF gives with a letter the ATF can take with a letter.
If that first letter hadn't been written bump stocks would have never seen the light of day.

In this case we're dealing with actual written law of what actually constitutes a firearm.
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dogmush

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2020, 11:59:16 AM »
Cool story, bro.  Now do bumpstocks.

Ok. No problem.  Part of it requires careful reading of the law, because the ATF didn't rewrite it.

Quote from: 26 USC 5845 (b)
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

I bolded a section.  The bump stock question is whether the parts exist and were intended to make the firearm shoot twice with one "function of the trigger".  If they did, then the part (the bump stock) is a machine gun by itself.  The initial approval letter hinged on the bump stock forcing your finger to actuate the original trigger of the firearm once per shot (twice actually, see binary triggers but that doesn't matter).  The ATF has long held that devices that attach to firearms and actuate the trigger themselves take over as the trigger.  You can see this in the infamous shoe-lace machine gun, and the electrical solenoid w/ button trigger (like a vulcan cannon, or paintball gun trigger packs)  Yes the original trigger moves once per shot, but by automating the pulling you've "redesigned" the trigger mechanism so you only do one thing (pull the shoelace and/or push an electrical switch) and so one function of the "new" trigger shoots more than once, and those are machine guns.  That is within the ATF's regulatory function (sorta).  

On the bump stock, what the ATF actually did (as opposed to what Guntubers pretend they did) was re evaluate the part based on orders from the Executive and find that the bump stock, when installed, moved the "trigger" from the original lever to the pistol grip/handguard interface.  So that one function (holding the handguard away from the pistol grip) fired several shots.  That makes the determination that a Bump Stock is a Machine gun in and of itself, fall squarely within the NFA, as written.  Because that section of the law is written to include a wide variety of posibilities.

In contrast the CFR on frames is much more specific:

Quote from: 27 CFR 478.11
Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.

You'll note it doesn't leave any room for marrying parts together to meet the definition.  It says Hammer, bolt or breechblock and firing mechanism.  They know it too.  Read this letter classifying the upper of a USC as the frame.  ATF says "The upper assembly of the FNC rifle is more properly classified as the receiver" because they had to pick something.  They say in their letter that the hammer is in the lower receiver, and included in the definition, but more receivery stuff is in the upper so let's go with that.  And they can do that until a court tells them no.  But once a court says no, it'll need to go back to a legislative body to rewrite that law and swap the "and" for an "or".  They could try and do it with a letter ('ala bump stock) but they'd be in the same situation they are now, making rules and hoping no judge ever has to look too closely.

cordex

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2020, 12:19:31 PM »
So you contend that they can get away with saying that the handguards/pistol grip taken together with regards to a bumpstock are now actually a trigger, but they just can't say that "part of a firearm" might be made up of one or more connected components? 

Both cases require twisting the actual words of legislation and I can't see how one is more egregious or wrongheaded than the other.

MechAg94

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2020, 12:58:13 PM »
There is really only one good, simple solution.  Get rid of the troublesome firearms laws. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

cordex

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2020, 12:59:48 PM »
There is really only one good, simple solution.  Get rid of the troublesome firearms laws. 
You've got my vote.

dogmush

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2020, 01:14:22 PM »
So you contend that they can get away with saying that the handguards/pistol grip taken together with regards to a bumpstock are now actually a trigger, but they just can't say that "part of a firearm" might be made up of one or more connected components? 

Both cases require twisting the actual words of legislation and I can't see how one is more egregious or wrongheaded than the other.

I think they have a point that the pulling forward of the rifle against the stock is the actual manipulation that fires the weapon.  The person firing a bump stock does one thing, pull forward and hold tension, and the weapon fires multiple shots.

An AR lower does not in any fashion contain a bolt or breechblock.

I also think it's likely that a non-firearms expert judge would feel the same way.  I suspect the ATF agrees with me because they seem unwilling to let a judge look in an AR lower for a bolt or breechblock.

Fly320s

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2020, 02:06:11 PM »
There is really only one good, simple solution.  Get rid of all the troublesome firearms laws. 

Fixed.
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charby

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2020, 02:19:44 PM »
There is really only one good, simple solution.  Get rid of the troublesome firearms laws.  

Where is your petition to run for office? I will sign it.
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WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2020, 02:21:05 PM »
"Shall not be infringed"
Just something I recall reading in a radical far right wing document
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cordex

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2020, 02:28:03 PM »
I think they have a point that the pulling forward of the rifle against the stock is the actual manipulation that fires the weapon.  The person firing a bump stock does one thing, pull forward and hold tension, and the weapon fires multiple shots.
This is equally true with "regular" bump firing if you have your thumb hooked in your beltloop with your trigger-finger held straight in front of the trigger, and the ATF specifically pointed to that as something they blessed when responding to the bump stock comments.

An AR lower does not in any fashion contain a bolt or breechblock.
No crap, but once again all it takes is the reinterpretation that "part" must then simply refer to multiple components which must be joined by takedown pins for the operation of the firearm.  Join together the upper and lower and now you have a complete receiver according to the law, so obviously those items need to be married and because both are parts of the receiver both must be serialized.

dogmush

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2020, 02:42:26 PM »
No crap, but once again all it takes is the reinterpretation that "part" must then simply refer to multiple components which must be joined by takedown pins for the operation of the firearm.  Join together the upper and lower and now you have a complete receiver according to the law, so obviously those items need to be married and because both are parts of the receiver both must be serialized.

If the ATF lawyers thought they could do that, they would have by now.  They have dropped criminal cases and let people go over this issue, which you just know had to hurt their little black hearts.

There is no part (singular, as the definition is clearly singular) on many modern firearms that fits the legal definition of "receiver".  It will take legislative action to change that definition.  Those are facts. That can't be reinterpreted.

This is equally true with "regular" bump firing if you have your thumb hooked in your beltloop with your trigger-finger held straight in front of the trigger, and the ATF specifically pointed to that as something they blessed when responding to the bump stock comments.

Except that, as the ATF said in that very same ruling, unlike a bump stock a belt loop does not meet the definition of machine gun.  Read the definition and see if you can figure out why.  And why the stock is a machine gun and the belt loop is not, without rewriting law.

WLJ

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Re: Your AR is not acutally a firearm, or something
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2020, 03:43:16 PM »
Anyway
If this shows any signs of having any legal traction I'm sure our all knowing all seeing overlords in DC will sign into law a bill closing the "AR Loophole"  faster than *expletive deleted*it through a goose come Jan 20. For the children of course.
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