Impeach / Punish

[zahc]

He still pushes the nonsense about the problem being extremism on both sides, and we need to meet in the middle. I am really tired of hearing that.

He is right, though. We still have to live with "coastal elites". Separating based on politics is no possible with no geographic nexii. So we really do have to live with each other, and that is the important short term goal. Agreeing with each other is, if a realistic goal at all, an extremely long term goal. It's overwhelmingly more likely that we will need to coexist even while having fundamental disagreement. Otherwise, you get cancel culture in the private sector, which is bad enough, and now we are starting to see political warfare, with an idea of punishing the undesired factions, which we saw in a very mild form with the Trump presidency, and now the blowback (in the forms of Bidens executive orders, etc.), and both are really frightening. As it escalates, and the nominal left get more extreme, it causes corresponding extremism to the right which sounds good if you agree with those policies, but...fundamental differences remember...it causes blowback and retaliation if not now, next time, or later, or eventually.

I'm in agreement that compromise usually means "Democrats win", but that's more related to the fact that the Republican party is ineffective or subverted, than it is a blow against compromise itself.

We do not want a world where you have to choose to join the Neo Nazi Party out of self preservation just to avoid starving or being unpersoned because you used the wrong pronouns. We are currently in a phase of escalation, and the Democrats are winning by a mile, and they think if they can just gain a hegemony (they already proved they own elections and get away with it), maybe pack some courts, buy/coerce a few more Republicans, then they will simply rule and they won't have to compromise at all. The problem is, they always overestimate their ability to do it because, remember, fundamental differences exist. It is equally impossible for any side to "win". The only way to really finish the job is to disenfranchise, or purge those who are different, and if it comes to it, since people rarely tolerate it in the long term, maybe by simply killing them all, and this is a very very old story so it should not be hard to see the end game.

[Perd Hapley]

As it escalates, and the nominal left get more extreme, it causes corresponding extremism to the right...

No, it really doesn't. Not "corresponding extremism." There may be some extremism, but to equate the two is as absurd as it is mendacious. 

Extremism on the left is promoted, and then demanded, by people with immense influence. Those who don't go along are often shunned, deplatformed, ruined by lawfare - perhaps even physically assaulted. Some get all four of those. The extremists themselves are often bankrolled and feted by the elite.

Extremism on the right is first blown out of proportion, then used as a cudgel against everyone not in lockstep with the left, and against their policy goals. Not to mention that talk of "right-wing extremism" usually refers to things that really don't qualify as extremism at all.

So, again, I'm tired of people throwing the right under the bus every time they decry left-wing extremainstreamism. We are not the problem.

[Hawkmoon]

No, it really doesn't. Not "corresponding extremism." There may be some extremism, but to equate the two is as absurd as it is mendacious. 

Extremism on the left is promoted, and then demanded, by people with immense influence. Those who don't go along are often shunned, deplatformed, ruined by lawfare - perhaps even physically assaulted. Some get all four of those. The extremists themselves are often bankrolled and feted by the elite.

Extremism on the right is first blown out of proportion, then used as a cudgel against everyone not in lockstep with the left, and against their policy goals. Not to mention that talk of "right-wing extremism" usually refers to things that really don't qualify as extremism at all.

So, again, I'm tired of people throwing the right under the bus every time they decry left-wing extremainstreamism. We are not the problem.

Agreed. The only proof we need is to look at the lamestream media coverage of nightly riots in Seattle and Portland, in which people were assaulted, buildings were vandalized and torched, police stations ransacked and destroyed -- and the media reported those activities as "peaceful (or mostly peaceful) protests." Meanwhile, if ten patriots gather on a street corner to wave an American flag it gets reported as full-scale riot.

[Perd Hapley]

Agreed. The only proof we need is to look at the lamestream media coverage of nightly riots in Seattle and Portland, in which people were assaulted, buildings were vandalized and torched, police stations ransacked and destroyed -- and the media reported those activities as "peaceful (or mostly peaceful) protests." Meanwhile, if ten patriots gather on a street corner to wave an American flag it gets reported as full-scale riot.

Somehow, the goings-on of 6th January don't bring out the usual sayings, like "a riot is the voice of the voiceless," or "speaking truth to power."

[cordex]

No, it really doesn't. Not "corresponding extremism." There may be some extremism, but to equate the two is as absurd as it is mendacious. 

Extremism on the left is promoted, and then demanded, by people with immense influence. Those who don't go along are often shunned, deplatformed, ruined by lawfare - perhaps even physically assaulted. Some get all four of those. The extremists themselves are often bankrolled and feted by the elite.

Extremism on the right is first blown out of proportion, then used as a cudgel against everyone not in lockstep with the left, and against their policy goals. Not to mention that talk of "right-wing extremism" usually refers to things that really don't qualify as extremism at all.

So, again, I'm tired of people throwing the right under the bus every time they decry left-wing extremainstreamism. We are not the problem.

All true, but in zahc's defense I would say that the widespread acceptance and celebration of leftist extremism pushes people on the right to be more tolerant of misbehavior and extremism on their own side.  Witness my own reaction to the Jan. 6 capital riot.  What those people did was wrong, stupid, and counterproductive.  It was the kind of behavior I detest, and should be quick to condemn.  But after nearly a year of almost constant leftist riots, violence, and murder protected, supported, and praised by Democrats and their media arm, it was really hard to get worked up about it.

The constant unchallenged lies on the national stage, the unhinged hypocrisy of the left, and the whiplash between the peaceful lockdown protests being condemned as terrorism, to BLM/ANTIFA riots and arson being praised as the pinnacle of free speech and fighting oppression, to the Capital riot being "no, no, this time we're really serious that it's terrorism" has made it way harder for me to properly respond to things that I intellectually know I should oppose.  It has forced me into a tribalist perspective that I don't like, and is likely to cause me to reflexively defend or maybe just ignore bad behavior on my side.

[Ben]

Witness my own reaction to the Jan. 6 capital riot.  What those people did was wrong, stupid, and counterproductive.  It was the kind of behavior I detest, and should be quick to condemn.  But after nearly a year of almost constant leftist riots, violence, and murder protected, supported, and praised by Democrats and their media arm, it was really hard to get worked up about it.

This is where I am as well. I am bombarded by excuses for why it's okay for the left to do it, to the point I constantly want them to get a taste of their own medicine.

I also agree with statements above that I am sick of the left defending 100 antifa beating people with bats and burning buildings, while demanding a half dozen boomers with Trump flags standing on a corner need to be imprisoned as insurrectionists, or else call for antifa to show up and throw piss bottles on them.

[Ron]

You may not see yourself as part of a tribe.

The rest of the tribes do.

[zahc]

All true, but in zahc's defense I would say that the widespread acceptance and celebration of leftist extremism pushes people on the right to be more tolerant of misbehavior and extremism on their own side.  Witness my own reaction to the Jan. 6 capital riot.  What those people did was wrong, stupid, and counterproductive.  It was the kind of behavior I detest, and should be quick to condemn.  But after nearly a year of almost constant leftist riots, violence, and murder protected, supported, and praised by Democrats and their media arm, it was really hard to get worked up about it.

The constant unchallenged lies on the national stage, the unhinged hypocrisy of the left, and the whiplash between the peaceful lockdown protests being condemned as terrorism, to BLM/ANTIFA riots and arson being praised as the pinnacle of free speech and fighting oppression, to the Capital riot being "no, no, this time we're really serious that it's terrorism" has made it way harder for me to properly respond to things that I intellectually know I should oppose.  It has forced me into a tribalist perspective that I don't like, and is likely to cause me to reflexively defend or maybe just ignore bad behavior on my side.

Exactly. As the left gets more radical, non-radical people who are aligned towards the center have to ally with increasingly radical counter movements out of self preservation. My personal version is accepting or turning a blind eye to blatantly biased right wing media. I mean the entire media complex plus hollywood are blatantly radically left, correct? So why not try to at least balance it out with some biased right wing media? One things for sure, nobody is getting "converted" in this process.

[Perd Hapley]

All true, but in zahc's defense I would say that the widespread acceptance and celebration of leftist extremism pushes people on the right to be more tolerant of misbehavior and extremism on their own side.  Witness my own reaction to the Jan. 6 capital riot.  What those people did was wrong, stupid, and counterproductive.  It was the kind of behavior I detest, and should be quick to condemn.  But after nearly a year of almost constant leftist riots, violence, and murder protected, supported, and praised by Democrats and their media arm, it was really hard to get worked up about it.

The constant unchallenged lies on the national stage, the unhinged hypocrisy of the left, and the whiplash between the peaceful lockdown protests being condemned as terrorism, to BLM/ANTIFA riots and arson being praised as the pinnacle of free speech and fighting oppression, to the Capital riot being "no, no, this time we're really serious that it's terrorism" has made it way harder for me to properly respond to things that I intellectually know I should oppose.  It has forced me into a tribalist perspective that I don't like, and is likely to cause me to reflexively defend or maybe just ignore bad behavior on my side.

That's not the point. None of what you mentioned changes the difference in kind and in quality between the extremist views and actions that now control the Democratic Party, vs the extremism on the fringes of the pro-American movement.

[kgbsquirrel]

That's not the point. None of what you mentioned changes the difference in kind and in quality between the extremist views and actions that now control the Democratic Party, vs the extremism on the fringes of the pro-American movement.

That's moral relativism for you.

[Perd Hapley]

That's moral relativism for you.

How do you mean?

[kgbsquirrel]

How do you mean?

You are looking for logical consistency in an argument that is contrived to equivocate disparate contexts via superficial similarities.  This specious form of argument has been used heavily in the last century as a tool to obfuscate objective right and wrong.

[cordex]

That's not the point. None of what you mentioned changes the difference in kind and in quality between the extremist views and actions that now control the Democratic Party, vs the extremism on the fringes of the pro-American movement.

I didn’t claim it did.  Thought I made it pretty clear the current disparity between the left and the right on the rioting/violence spectrum. And I hope the American right never lets themselves be goaded into the violent conflict that the Left thinks they want. Upon reflection (and after the guilty pleasure of watching politicians get a minor taste of what they have sponsored for the past year) the capitol riot made me worry that the Right is getting that much closer to turning the corner and getting into the political violence game we have condemned the Left for playing so long.

You may not see yourself as part of a tribe.

The rest of the tribes do.

Of course I am part of a tribe, but I also want my tribe to be better than the other tribe. If they aren’t, then why would I choose them?  Ideally that means holding my own tribe accountable when they screw up. My point was that to the extent I let myself ignore the wrongs from my own tribe because of the obvious shortcomings of the other tribe, I am debasing the very value that makes my side better.

[kgbsquirrel]

I didn’t claim it did.  Thought I made it pretty clear the current disparity between the left and the right on the rioting/violence spectrum. And I hope the American right never lets themselves be goaded into the violent conflict that the Left thinks they want. Upon reflection (and after the guilty pleasure of watching politicians get a minor taste of what they have sponsored for the past year) the capitol riot made me worry that the Right is getting that much closer to turning the corner and getting into the political violence game we have condemned the Left for playing so long.


Of course I am part of a tribe, but I also want my tribe to be better than the other tribe. If they aren’t, then why would I choose them?  Ideally that means holding my own tribe accountable when they screw up. My point was that to the extent I let myself ignore the wrongs from my own tribe because of the obvious shortcomings of the other tribe, I am debasing the very value that makes my side better.

Your reticence to engage in political violence, even in your own defense no less, is why you will lose to the progressives.

[cordex]

Your reticence to engage in political violence, even in your own defense no less, is why you will lose to the progressives.

Self defense is not political violence.
Retributive political violence is not self defense.

Or if you prefer a pragmatic argument, do you feel that the Battle of the Capitol was a defeat for the progressives?  For that matter, can you name one act of political violence from the American right in living memory that was a net win for the movement?

[kgbsquirrel]

Self defense is not political violence.
Retributive political violence is not self defense.

Or if you prefer a pragmatic argument, do you feel that the Battle of the Capitol was a defeat for the progressives?  For that matter, can you name one act of political violence from the American right in living memory that was a net win for the movement?

You are in a 4th gen war whether you like it or not.  Targeted political violence is an unavoidable necessity in such.  Your position that violence is never acceptable is a position of preemptive surrender.  Furthermore you are using progressive propaganda terms like Battle for the Capitol.  There was no battle.  The cops opened the doors from the inside and let people in.  Your use of the lie diminishes your position.

To answer your question I don't believe we've actually seen any right wing political violence.  We've seen plenty of left wing violence being masqueraded as right wing, and of course the blatant left wing violence.

The last time I can recall true right wing violence in the Americas is when Pinochet had the communist agitators and organizers killed thus ending the nascent communist revolution in his country and saving themselves from total ruin (for at least 30-40 years, then they tried again, and succeeded.)

[Boomhauer]

Left wing violence is on a knob, right wing violence is an on/off switch that will make the Civil War look like a trip to Disneyland.

[cordex]

Furthermore you are using progressive propaganda terms like Battle for the Capitol.  There was no battle.  The cops opened the doors from the inside and let people in.  Your use of the lie diminishes your position.

The use of that term was fully intentional.  The (small scale) violence accomplished nothing and was an absolute propaganda coup for the left.

Yes, the cops let some people in.  Other cops were dragged out and beaten with sticks.

To answer your question I don't believe we've actually seen any right wing political violence.  We've seen plenty of left wing violence being masqueraded as right wing, and of course the blatant left wing violence.

Had the left done what happened on Jan 6 I would have called it political violence, so I'll call it the same thing for the right.

[kgbsquirrel]

The use of that term was fully intentional.  The (small scale) violence accomplished nothing and was an absolute propaganda coup for the left.

Yes, the cops let some people in.  Other cops were dragged out and beaten with sticks.
Had the left done what happened on Jan 6 I would have called it political violence, so I'll call it the same thing for the right.

And the small scale violence WAS initiated by leftists planted in he crowd.  Why are you content to paint the entire right with the slander of a false flag operation?  What little violence that happened on the 6th was LEFT wing violence.  It was a propaganda coup for the left because they engineered it.



America: in 4th generation war, mostly information based with targeted violence.
Left: uses targeted violence against right while pretending to be the Right to further the state of information war.
You: Shame on righties! Righties doing violence is wrong! Political violence is never self defense!
Me: Surely you can not be this obtuse.  Why do you want to lose this war?

[Ron]

I'm not sure what really happened. This is a pretty good write up with a balanced take on the event.

https://libertyunyielding.com/2021/02/15/capitol-riot-prying-out-the-narrative-bringing-in-nuggets-of-reality/

[cordex]

And the small scale violence WAS initiated by leftists planted in he crowd.  Why are you content to paint the entire right with the slander of a false flag operation?  What little violence that happened on the 6th was LEFT wing violence.  It was a propaganda coup for the left because they engineered it.

I'm sure some was, but I do not believe that all of violence on the 6th was left wing violence.  If it was, great, and I'd love to see the evidence.  It is not impossible for me to believe that people notionally on my side would be capable of making bad decisions (or good decisions I guess, if you're all for political violence), especially after seeing a year of violence promoted and protected by the left and widespread government policies that just a couple years ago would have been unthinkable.

Importantly, I'm not painting the entire right with anything, or even the entire right that was at the Capitol on Jan 6.

I'm also reminded of the leftist apologists who "proved" that Nazi cops dressed up as ANTIFA were initiating their riots.

America: in 4th generation war, mostly information based with targeted violence.
Left: uses targeted violence against right while pretending to be the Right to further the state of information war.
You: Shame on righties! Righties doing violence is wrong! Political violence is never self defense!
Me: Surely you can not be this obtuse.  Why do you want to lose this war?

Apparently I can be all the obtuse.

Look, if you are legitimately in favor of engaging in real political violence (riots, arson, assassinations, bombings, whatever) then I'd recommend not posting about it in an open forum.  Unlike when BLM/ANTIFA does it, the Feds have been shown to be willing to use all available resources to track down anything with even a hint of the scent of right-wing political violence.  If it's just internet bloviating, then I guess I'm too old and too much of a dad to get fired up.

If all the bad things that our side does is actually the other side being bad, then that is amazing and so convenient!

This does bring us full circle back to zahc's post...

As it escalates, and the nominal left get more extreme, it causes corresponding extremism to the right which sounds good if you agree with those policies, but...fundamental differences remember...it causes blowback and retaliation if not now, next time, or later, or eventually.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm also reminded of the leftist apologists who "proved" that Nazi cops dressed up as ANTIFA were initiating their riots.

It does seem to be left-wing SOP to accuse the right of doing exactly what you, yourself are doing. Or maybe plan to do.

  It is not impossible for me to believe that people notionally on my side would be capable of making bad decisions (or good decisions I guess, if you're all for political violence), especially after seeing a year of violence promoted and protected by the left and widespread government policies that just a couple years ago would have been unthinkable.

It would almost make sense for the right, having watched the Left get their way by violence, arson, intimidation, and general screaming and law-breaking over the past several years; to engage in the same thing in January.

[Ron]

The link I provided includes the full resignation letter from Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund.

He would have been an interesting witness at the impeachment trial.

I'll let you guys draw your own conclusions but suffice it to say, there was a very large organized group, using coms to coordinate, that attacked the capital hill police who were basically denied timely help when requested.

[kgbsquirrel]

I'm sure some was, but I do not believe that all of violence on the 6th was left wing violence.  If it was, great, and I'd love to see the evidence.  It is not impossible for me to believe that people notionally on my side would be capable of making bad decisions (or good decisions I guess, if you're all for political violence), especially after seeing a year of violence promoted and protected by the left and widespread government policies that just a couple years ago would have been unthinkable.

Importantly, I'm not painting the entire right with anything, or even the entire right that was at the Capitol on Jan 6.

I'm also reminded of the leftist apologists who "proved" that Nazi cops dressed up as ANTIFA were initiating their riots.
Apparently I can be all the obtuse.

Look, if you are legitimately in favor of engaging in real political violence (riots, arson, assassinations, bombings, whatever) then I'd recommend not posting about it in an open forum.  Unlike when BLM/ANTIFA does it, the Feds have been shown to be willing to use all available resources to track down anything with even a hint of the scent of right-wing political violence.  If it's just internet bloviating, then I guess I'm too old and too much of a dad to get fired up.

If all the bad things that our side does is actually the other side being bad, then that is amazing and so convenient!

This does bring us full circle back to zahc's post...

That was a lot of words just to say that you are so afraid of the current despotism that you won't even broach discussion of the realities of the situation and instead choose to insulate yourself in a fantasy of faux moral superiority as if it will shield you from the actual aggressions of evil people.

[Ron]

It was a FAKE insurrection.