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Author Topic: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control  (Read 5592 times)

Cliffh

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #225 on: May 01, 2021, 06:46:20 PM »

Not that I’ve seen for AR Mags.  I’ve been buying a few 10 packs of Gen 2 Magpuls here.  https://dsgarms.com/magazines-dsgtenpack01



I received my 10 mag order from them yesterday.

Angel Eyes

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #226 on: May 01, 2021, 07:46:36 PM »

It needs to be brought up more as a counter-argument every time one of these dumbasses brings up the "but muskets" line. I want my own Littoral Combat Ship.

I'm sure there's a pressing need for those where you live ...
"We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics."
                            - Joe Biden

"But even Dr. King’s assassination did not have the worldwide impact that George Floyd’s death did."
                            - also Joe Biden

WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #227 on: May 07, 2021, 06:05:24 PM »

BREAKING: DOJ Publishes Proposed ‘Ghost Gun’ Rules, Outlawing Unserialized 80% Lowers, ‘Modernizing’ Receiver Definition
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-doj-publishes-proposed-ghost-gun-rules-outlawing-80-lowers-modernizing-receiver-definition/
Never Underestimate The Power Of The Stupid Side

Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #228 on: May 07, 2021, 06:17:02 PM »

I'm sure there's a pressing need for those where you live ...
Hey, we have submarines.  =)
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #229 on: May 07, 2021, 07:37:41 PM »

Hey, we have submarines.  =)

We've got a submarine in Oklahoma too.

In fact, I could launch my boat in the navigation channel less than 40 miles from my house and "sail" to the Gulf of Mexico.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Angel Eyes

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #230 on: May 07, 2021, 07:41:27 PM »

BREAKING: DOJ Publishes Proposed ‘Ghost Gun’ Rules, Outlawing Unserialized 80% Lowers, ‘Modernizing’ Receiver Definition
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-doj-publishes-proposed-ghost-gun-rules-outlawing-80-lowers-modernizing-receiver-definition/

Hello 3-D printing.
"We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics."
                            - Joe Biden

"But even Dr. King’s assassination did not have the worldwide impact that George Floyd’s death did."
                            - also Joe Biden

cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #231 on: May 07, 2021, 08:10:52 PM »

Quote
Under the proposed rule, a “frame or receiver” is any externally visible housing or holding structure for one or more fire control components. A “fire control component” is one necessary for the firearm to initiate, complete, or continue the firing sequence, including, but not limited to, any of the following: hammer, bolt, bolt carrier, breechblock, cylinder, trigger mechanism, firing pin, striker, or slide rails.

Any firearm part falling within the new definition that is identified with a serial number must be presumed, absent an official determination by ATF or other reliable evidence to the contrary, to be a frame or receiver.
Yet another ATF rule that literally ignores the law.
Sounds like uppers might be in the crosshairs.

Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #232 on: May 07, 2021, 08:40:13 PM »

Quote
To help keep guns from being sold to convicted felons and other prohibited purchasers, the rule would make clear that retailers must run background checks before selling kits that contain the parts necessary for someone to readily make a gun at home.

I wonder if they'll try to shoehorn stuff like PSA rifle kits (sans the stripped lower) into this? "Readily make" could certainly be defined in many ways.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #233 on: May 07, 2021, 09:00:08 PM »

I wonder if they'll try to shoehorn stuff like PSA rifle kits (sans the stripped lower) into this? "Readily make" could certainly be defined in many ways.
The upper alone would be a receiver under these rules.

French G.

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #234 on: May 07, 2021, 09:05:44 PM »

Any externally visible housing or holding structure for a fire control part? Wear a case of triggers on your belt, congrats, you are now that state registered deadly weapon the braggy guy in boot camp claimed he was.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #235 on: May 08, 2021, 12:45:05 AM »

The upper alone would be a receiver under these rules.

The rule states that split receiver designs that already have a determination  (i.e. an AR15 design) will continue to use that determination as to what is a frame.  So they aren't trying to regulate AR uppers.

The "is designed to" language would seem to kill any commercial 80% (or 10% for that matter) frames.

cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #236 on: May 08, 2021, 07:40:20 AM »

The rule states that split receiver designs that already have a determination  (i.e. an AR15 design) will continue to use that determination as to what is a frame.  So they aren't trying to regulate AR uppers.
The rule unambiguously defines the upper as a receiver and does so in direct conflict of what the law says.  While there might be a determination right now, has the ATF ever changed a determination?

Also:
If the ATF lawyers thought they could do that, they would have by now.  They have dropped criminal cases and let people go over this issue, which you just know had to hurt their little black hearts.

There is no part (singular, as the definition is clearly singular) on many modern firearms that fits the legal definition of "receiver".  It will take legislative action to change that definition.  Those are facts. That can't be reinterpreted.
Your faith in the ATF has not aged well.

dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #237 on: May 08, 2021, 07:54:16 AM »

Quote
Your faith in the ATF has not aged well.
indeed, my prediction has not.

I have learned more about the differences in Federal Law, Federal regulations, and rulemaking.  With new info I have had to update my thinking.  i.e.:

Quote
The rule unambiguously defines the upper as a receiver and does so in direct conflict of what the law says.  While there might be a determination right now, has the ATF ever changed a determination?

Is an untrue statement.  Federal LAW does not define an upper or lower.


I answered your speculation on what THIS proposed rule says.  If DOJ decides to update this rule again, then we would have to update our conversation.  But for now, ATF is explicitly not trying to serialize or treat as a receiver AR15 uppers.  There's enough bad in the new rule to deal with without inventing more problems.

cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #238 on: May 08, 2021, 08:08:27 AM »

Federal law defines what a receiver is. I never said it defines what is an upper or lower.

This proposed rule would not require any update for the ATF to determine that uppers need to be serialized and transferred via FFL. It would be entirely up to the ATF to make determinations at that point.

dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #239 on: May 08, 2021, 08:18:33 AM »

Federal law defines what a receiver is. I never said it defines what is an upper or lower.

This proposed rule would not require any update for the ATF to determine that uppers need to be serialized and transferred via FFL. It would be entirely up to the ATF to make determinations at that point.

It does not.  The receiver definition is a CFR, not a law.  Which we are all discovering is changed by the rulemaking process, not legislation.

Federal Law gives the director the regulatory authority to adjust the definition through the rule making process. 

Quote
This proposed rule would not require any update for the ATF to determine that uppers need to be serialized and transferred via FFL. It would be entirely up to the ATF to make determinations at that point.

This is also untrue, as the proposed rule specifically lists AR type multi-part receivers as not changing their determination as to which part is the receiver.  So if they wanted to include an AR upper, they would have to go through the rulemaking process again.

Have you read the actual rule, as opposed to the bloggers EXSUMS of it?

cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #240 on: May 08, 2021, 09:07:48 AM »

It does not.  The receiver definition is a CFR, not a law.  Which we are all discovering is changed by the rulemaking process, not legislation.

Federal Law gives the director the regulatory authority to adjust the definition through the rule making process. 
That's mostly accurate, although while CFR may not be legislation it is by any reasonable definition law.

This is also untrue, as the proposed rule specifically lists AR type multi-part receivers as not changing their determination as to which part is the receiver.  So if they wanted to include an AR upper, they would have to go through the rulemaking process again.
Given the change in rule is explicitly designed to be less exclusive and narrow, and allows the ATF significant latitude in determining what is and is not a receiver, and given that the upper receiver of an AR-15 does contain the bolt and bolt carrier as per the listed definition, and given that the ATF can and has changed determinations in the past, what in the rule would prevent the ATF from issuing a simple determination that an upper is a receiver absent going through the rulemaking process?

Quote from: dogmush link=topic=63952.msg1305057#msg1305057 date=1620476313Have you read the actual rule, as opposed to the bloggers EXSUMS of it?[/quote
All 115 pages?  No.  Have you?  I've read parts of it directly, though.

dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #241 on: May 08, 2021, 09:24:20 AM »

All 115 pages?  No.  Have you?  I've read parts of it directly, though.

Yes, I did.

That's mostly accurate, although while CFR may not be legislation it is by any reasonable definition law.
Given the change in rule is explicitly designed to be less exclusive and narrow, and allows the ATF significant latitude in determining what is and is not a receiver, and given that the upper receiver of an AR-15 does contain the bolt and bolt carrier as per the listed definition, and given that the ATF can and has changed determinations in the past, what in the rule would prevent the ATF from issuing a simple determination that an upper is a receiver absent going through the rulemaking process?



Quote from: Proposed 478.11 (Frame or receiver.) (b) (3) (v):
AR-15-type, and Beretta AR-70-type firearms: the lower part of the weapon
that provides housing for the trigger mechanism and hammer.

There's a picture as well.  It's on page 86  They would have to edit the rule again, through the rule making process.

HankB

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #242 on: May 08, 2021, 11:28:16 AM »

Any insight as to how the proposed rule change affects existing unserialized frames, or firearms that have already been completed on such?
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #243 on: May 08, 2021, 12:03:38 PM »

Quote
As the proposed rule explains, from 2016 to 2020, more than 23,000 un-serialized firearms were reported to have been recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes

No doubt they're associating 80% lowers in with firearms where the S/N was  scratched off in that number.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 12:50:07 PM by WLJ »
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dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #244 on: May 08, 2021, 12:11:33 PM »

Any insight as to how the proposed rule change affects existing unserialized frames, or firearms that have already been completed on such?

The ATF has taken to calling those Privately Manufactured Firearms (PMF).  It's a long rule, but briefly:

o PMF's in private hands are not affected.
o Non-licensees may manufacture PMF's with no marking requirements.
o A PMF that enters a FFL's inventory MUST be serialized by that FFL within 7 days. (Definitely applies to normal FFL's, may apply to gunsmiths.)  The serial must begin with the FFL's abbreviated license number as a prefix, then have an identifying number.

On unfinished frames:  This rule would effectively make them firearms.  (there's some verbose wording, but they are clearly aiming for P80's and 80% AR lowers), so after the rule's adoption commercial 80% makers would need to serialize, pay excise tax, and be licensed Manufacturers.  There's no word in here how they intend to tell if when any particular 80% lower was made and sold.  So for example: I have 5 or 6 unfinished frames lying around my house.  Upon rule adoption, those are magically now firearms but as a non-licensee I am not required to mark any of my PMF's, so nothing should change for me, I think.  If my local gun shop has a bunch of unfinished lowers in stock, they magically become firearms, the FFL must mark them, enter them in the bound book, and sell them as firearm*.  If a prohibited person has an unfinished lower right now, upon rule adoption they are in possession of a firearm, and a felon.  The rule seems pretty dang broad and vague as to what level of unfinished chunk of metal is a firearm:

Quote
Partially complete, disassembled, or inoperable frame or receiver. The term “frame or receiver” shall include, in the case of a frame or receiver that is partially complete, disassembled, or inoperable, a frame or receiver that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to a functional state. In determining whether a partially complete, disassembled, or inoperable frame or receiver may readily be assembled, completed, converted, or restored to a functional state, the Director may consider any available instructions, guides, templates, jigs, equipment, tools, or marketing materials. For purposes of this definition, the term “partially complete,” as it modifies “frame or receiver,” means a forging, casting, printing, extrusion, machined body or similar article that has reached a stage in manufacture where it is clearly identifiable as an unfinished component part of a weapon


*It is unclear to me in the case of existing inventory at a 01 FFL on magic firearm transfiguration day, who is required to pay the excise task, and whether the 01 FFL has just manufactured firearms for sale without a license.

RocketMan

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #245 on: May 08, 2021, 12:19:08 PM »

No doubt they're associating 80% lowers in with firearms the S/N scratched off in that number.

That was my thought, as well.  They're not the most ethical in how they sling their statistics.
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HankB

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #246 on: May 08, 2021, 06:19:27 PM »

No doubt they're associating 80% lowers in with firearms where the S/N was  scratched off in that number.
There were a lot of firearms commercially manufactured in the past (Pre '68?) that never had a serial number, and they've still been legal. I believe the law prohibits possession of a firearm that has had the serial number removed or altered, it does NOT prohibit possession of a firearm that never had a serial number applied which was made at a time when serial numbers weren't required.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Those who work for a living are being BURIED by those who vote for a living.
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
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Jim147

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #247 on: May 08, 2021, 07:16:08 PM »

There were a lot of firearms commercially manufactured in the past (Pre '68?) that never had a serial number, and they've still been legal. I believe the law prohibits possession of a firearm that has had the serial number removed or altered, it does NOT prohibit possession of a firearm that never had a serial number applied which was made at a time when serial numbers weren't required.

What that have to do with pushing a narrative?
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cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #248 on: May 09, 2021, 08:50:02 AM »

There's a picture as well.  It's on page 86  They would have to edit the rule again, through the rule making process.
I agree that the current rules don’t make an upper a serial numbered receiver, but can you show me where it says they would have to go through the rulemaking process again to add an additional receiver designation?

Everything I see indicates that the list is non-exhaustive and can be added to based solely on the determination of the ATF.  I agree that to add an upper would appear to conflict with what they are claiming to want to do, but it is way less of a stretch than bumpstocks being machine guns.

dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #249 on: May 09, 2021, 09:26:46 AM »

I agree that the current rules don’t make an upper a serial numbered receiver, but can you show me where it says they would have to go through the rulemaking process again to add an additional receiver designation?

Everything I see indicates that the list is non-exhaustive and can be added to based solely on the determination of the ATF.  I agree that to add an upper would appear to conflict with what they are claiming to want to do, but it is way less of a stretch than bumpstocks being machine guns.

I literally quoted it.  The rule (if adopted) verbatim says that in an AR-15 the lower receiver is the "receiver".  They would have to remove that paragraph from the rule to make any other part of an AR-15 the "receiver".  The way you do that (remove a paragraph) is the rulemaking process.  (notice of proposed rule change, public comment, final rule change, publishing in federal register)

I think a lot of people don't understand what they did with the bump stock thing (which, you will recall, lost in court).  If they had a CFR that literally said "A bump stock is not a machine gun" then they couldn't have made it one with a determination letter.

IANAL, but I did spend the last 30 days reading about 600 pages on Laws, CFRs, rulemaking, and regulatory authority because the white house brought it up.

This is only the proposed rule change, so it may change before final adoption, but the rule, as proposed explicitly says the lower of an AR is THE[/i] receiver for the purposes of federal law.

The only caveat I see is that they mention if you combine the frames of two different weapons into one firearm, both frames remain firearms in their own right:
Quote
(2) Frames or receivers of different weapons that are combined to create a similar weapon each retain their respective classifications as frames or receivers provided they retain their original design and configuration.
This is referring (I suspect) to .50 BMG uppers, since they have previously been determined to be firearms.  A "normal" AR upper, as it exists today, is not a "different weapon" then the lower and falls under the spelled out definition I quoted above.

If you were to design some new fangled something that pins to an AR, after the adoption of the new rule you would need to submit that for a determination, because that's not an "AR tybe" firearm.  Future versions of the belt-fed upper or AR57 may find themselves a firearm in their own right.
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