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Author Topic: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control  (Read 12044 times)

cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #250 on: May 10, 2021, 09:41:27 AM »

I literally quoted it.  The rule (if adopted) verbatim says that in an AR-15 the lower receiver is the "receiver".  They would have to remove that paragraph from the rule to make any other part of an AR-15 the "receiver".  The way you do that (remove a paragraph) is the rulemaking process.  (notice of proposed rule change, public comment, final rule change, publishing in federal register)
That illustration is not the rule. It is specifically referenced as one of several "nonexclusive examples that illustrate the definition."
The relevant portion of the actual definition is:
Quote
A part of a firearm that, when the complete weapon is assembled, is visible from the exterior and provides housing or a structure designed to hold or integrate one or more fire control components, even if pins or other attachments are required to connect those components to the housing or structure. Any such part identified with a serial number shall be presumed, absent an official determination by the Director or other reliable evidence to the contrary, to be a frame or receiver. For purposes of this definition, the term “fire control component” means a component necessary for the firearm to initiate, complete, or continue the firing sequence, including any of the following: hammer, bolt, bolt carrier, breechblock, cylinder, trigger mechanism, firing pin, striker, or slide rails.
[...]
(b) Split or modular frame or receiver. (1) In the case of a firearm with more than one part that provides housing or a structure designed to hold or integrate one or more fire control or essential internal components (e.g., a split frame with upper assembly
and lower assembly as in many semiautomatic rifles, upper slide assembly and lower grip module as in many semiautomatic handguns, or multiple silencer modular pieces), the Director may determine whether a specific part or parts of a weapon is the frame or receiver, which may include an internal frame or chassis at least partially exposed to the exterior to allow identification. In making this determination, the Director will consider the following factors, with no single factor being controlling:
 (i) Which component the manufacturer intended to be the frame or receiver;
 (ii) Which component the firearms industry commonly considers to be the frame or receiver with respect to the same or similar firearms;
 (iii) How the component fits within the overall design of the firearm when assembled;
 (iv) The design and function of the fire control components to be housed or integrated;
 (v) Whether the component may permanently, conspicuously, and legibly be identified with a serial number and other markings in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed;
 (vi) Whether classifying the particular component is consistent with the legislative intent of the Act and this part; and
 (vii) Whether classifying the component as the frame or receiver is consistent with ATF’s prior classifications.
This proposed rule gives the ATF the independent authority to determine what component or components are receivers so long as they meet the very broad definition of:
1. Being visible from the exterior
2. Holding or integrating any fire control components
This clearly could be used to identify an upper receiver as a firearm receiver.  As you point out, there is also nothing precluding multiple registered components on an assembled firearm.

To be fair to you, the proposal also says they aren't trying to change existing determinations and the rule implies deference to previous determinations as well as industry and manufacturer acceptance, however the stated intent of the rule does not necessarily impact the rule itself.  It clearly places the ATF in the position of making receiver determinations based on a broad definition which could easily apply to multiple components without going through the rulemaking process again.

Also probably good to keep in mind that for the past 50 or so years we've relied on the existing definition - despite (per the ATF themselves in this proposed change) that definition not literally applying to most modern firearms.  Regardless, they have enforced it as though it did.  Only when pressed in court did they back down, and then only by stopping prosecution of individual cases.  You seem to think that if we broaden the definition the ATF will suddenly decide to limit themselves and not continue their overreach.  I don't have the same faith in that agency.

I think a lot of people don't understand what they did with the bump stock thing (which, you will recall, lost in court).
 
Are you under the impression that the bumpstock ban has been overturned?  Also, as I recall last time it came up you defended the bumpstock ban as totally kosher.  Have you changed your position on that as well?  We've discussed it at some length before, but if there's something you think I don't understand about it I'd love to correct my lack of understanding.

If they had a CFR that literally said "A bump stock is not a machine gun" then they couldn't have made it one with a determination letter.
For the past 50 years they made AR lowers into receivers despite the CFR that literally said they weren't.  So...

This is only the proposed rule change, so it may change before final adoption, but the rule, as proposed explicitly says the lower of an AR is THE[/i] receiver for the purposes of federal law.
Interestingly, the proposed rule states:
Quote
The following is a nonexclusive list of such weapons and the specific part identified as the frame or receiver as they existed on [date of publication of the final rule]:
That seems to imply that these determinations could readily change and considering that based on the rule the ATF can independently define what a receiver is within the broad limits of the rule I don't see this as formally limiting the ATF in the way you assume it will.

Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #251 on: May 10, 2021, 09:58:05 AM »

With the caveat that I am confused, Mrgunsngear did a video on this that seems to indicate an upper could be included based on the language. The section from the proposed rule is too long for me to type, but below is where he displays it in his video, so you can go to the link and pause it to read. It says that "frame or receiver" could include the bolt and bolt carrier group.

https://youtu.be/KIqG-c03QTE?t=129

On the tangent, I find it interesting that ATF uses "silencer" rather than "suppressor". While "silencer" is the commonly used nomenclature for the general public I guess, we all know there's no such thing as a silencer. The tin foil part of me can't help but think it's language manipulation to assist in banning "devices that make guns silent".
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #252 on: May 10, 2021, 10:25:03 AM »


On the tangent, I find it interesting that ATF uses "silencer" rather than "suppressor". While "silencer" is the commonly used nomenclature for the general public I guess, we all know there's no such thing as a silencer. The tin foil part of me can't help but think it's language manipulation to assist in banning "devices that make guns silent".

Maxim called them silencers in his 1909 patent so blame him
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dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #253 on: May 10, 2021, 12:25:23 PM »

Cordex, you and I are reading that proposed rule differently.  Sub para 3 says:

Quote
The Director has previously determined that a specific part is the frame or
receiver with respect to certain weapons with split or modular frames or receivers. The
following is a nonexclusive list of such weapons and the specific part identified as the
frame or receiver as they existed on [date of publication of the final rule]:

In that paragraph "nonexclusive list of such weapons" means that there are more weapons with split receivers that the Director has made determinations on, but they are only putting some in the actual rule)  and "as they existed on ..."  means as the weapons (or weapon type) existed, not as the determination existed.

Under that sub para v says:
Quote
AR-15-type, and Beretta AR-70-type firearms: the lower part of the weapon that provides housing for the trigger mechanism and hammer.

The receiver of an AR is defined in the rule.  They would have to remove sub para "v" to make a new determination. 

Perhaps I am wrong, as I am not a lawyer, but that's what it says to my reading.


Bump Stock Ban article:
https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/26/federal-appeals-court-rules-trumps-bump-stock-ban-is-unconstitutional/

I confess I don't know exactly where in the legal wrangling that case is right now, and I think there may be a case in the 10 circuit as well.  In 2020 the SCOTUS declined to hear about the bump stock ban, so I have no idea where it will end up.  But at least in the 6th circuit there is an injunction against enforcing it.

With out digging through all my old posts on the matter, I think I felt at the time that the bumpstock ban was consistent with their previous machine gun rulings (shoelace/garand, akins accelerator, and electric motor switches  becoming the "new" trigger.)  I'm not sure I would say "completely kosher" but at least consistent.  I may have even said something like "within the scope of the determinatiion authority they have used before" or some such. If the Federal courts would care to disagree with me, I'd be happy to be corrected. 

WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #254 on: May 20, 2021, 11:27:38 AM »

Quote
“In short, David Chipman is uniquely qualified to lead ATF. He has deep experience at that agency, and he is ready to work with law enforcement, the communities most heavily impacted by violence, and others to make our nation safer while upholding Americans’ Second Amendment rights,” the letter states.

 [barf]

17 Democrat Attorneys General: David Chipman is ‘Uniquely Qualified to Lead ATF’
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/17-democrat-attorneys-general-david-chipman-is-uniquely-qualified-to-lead-atf/
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Boomhauer

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #255 on: May 20, 2021, 11:39:36 AM »

He burns kids real good is what they mean.
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Nick1911

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #256 on: May 21, 2021, 12:51:25 PM »

The proposed rule change is now open for public comment on Regulations.gov.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/ATF-2021-0001-0001
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 01:17:02 PM by Nick1911 »

WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #257 on: May 21, 2021, 03:56:25 PM »

MidwayUSA has all their pistol braces on sale .
All that I checked say this in the listing

Quote
Due to safety considerations and legal/regulatory reasons, Pistol Braces may not be returned. Defective items must be returned to the manufacturer.

They smell a ban coming soon
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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #258 on: June 23, 2021, 08:42:58 AM »

I haven't seen any articles on it yet, but just now heard on Fox Business that Biden is slated to announce a bunch of new EOs today on gun control. Among others, they mentioned "zero tolerance" for FFLs. I get a little nervous anytime I hear politicians use the phrase "zero tolerance".
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #259 on: June 23, 2021, 08:50:54 AM »

I haven't seen any articles on it yet, but just now heard on Fox Business that Biden is slated to announce a bunch of new EOs today on gun control. Among others, they mentioned "zero tolerance" for FFLs. I get a little nervous anytime I hear politicians use the phrase "zero tolerance".

Biden Expected To Push More Gun Control Amid Violence Surge
https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2021/06/23/biden-expected-to-push-more-gun-control-amid-violence-surge-n46927

Hey Sniffy Joe, how about leaving honest citizens alone and signing some EOs on criminal control instead?
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TommyGunn

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #260 on: June 23, 2021, 09:56:40 AM »

   ....... Hey Sniffy Joe, how about leaving honest citizens alone and signing some EOs on criminal control instead?

Uh,  'cause criminals don't obey executive orders any more than they obey laws? ? ? ....  ;/
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #261 on: June 23, 2021, 10:08:30 AM »

It's all the NRA's fault!

Quote
Chris Martin
@chrisjdmartin
I almost just spit out my coffee.

Cedric Richmond (senior Biden advisor) is blaming the skyrocketing crime rates in America on... the @NRA

They've apparently been "governing our country for far too long"

Spoiler: Democrats control the House, Senate, and White House

Yeah right

Biden senior adviser Cedric Richmond blames NRA for increased violence because ‘they’ve been governing our country for far too long’ [video]
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2021/06/23/biden-senior-adviser-cedric-richmond-blames-nra-for-increased-violence-because-theyve-been-governing-our-country-for-far-too-long-video/
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #262 on: June 23, 2021, 11:06:41 AM »

Quote
And where will he direct his efforts? We’ll have to listen to what he reads from the Teleprompter today, but from details that have been leaked from the White House, it appears he’ll use the excuse to further attack — wait for it — the gun business.

From Roll Call . . .

The Justice Department will announce a new “zero tolerance” policy to revoke the federal licenses of firearms dealers who willfully violate gun laws, senior administration officials said. That includes actions such as selling a gun to someone who is prohibited from possessing one, failing to do a background check on gun purchasers or falsifying records.

And the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives will focus limited resources on inspecting those gun dealers who need it most, the officials said. That effort will employ crime data and closer connections with local law enforcement and community leaders who can point out problem dealers.

We're going to make it double secret illegal

Biden Set To Announce New Push To Shut Down More FFLs To Fight Violent Crime (Or Something)
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/biden-set-to-announce-new-push-to-shut-down-ffls/
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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #263 on: June 23, 2021, 11:35:25 AM »

Quote
failing to do a background check on gun purchasers

I wonder how that will impact states like mine, where dealers don't have to do a NICS on CCW holders?
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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #264 on: June 23, 2021, 01:24:37 PM »

Here is the White House Fact Sheet on the latest push:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/06/23/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-comprehensive-strategy-to-prevent-and-respond-to-gun-crime-and-ensure-public-safety/

EDIT: Interesting snippet:

Quote
Guidance on Using ARP Funds to Reduce Violence. Today, the Treasury Department is highlighting that communities experiencing a surge in gun violence as a result of the pandemic may use the American Rescue Plan’s $350 billion in state and local funding for purposes such as:

Hiring law enforcement officials – even above pre-pandemic levels – or paying overtime where the funds are directly focused on advancing community policing strategies in those communities experiencing an increase in gun violence associated with the pandemic.
Additional enforcement efforts to reduce gun violence exacerbated by the pandemic, including prosecuting gun traffickers, rogue dealers, and other parties contributing to the supply of crime guns, as well as collaborative federal/state/local efforts to identify and address gun trafficking channels.
Investing in technology and equipment to allow law enforcement to more efficiently and effectively respond to the rise in gun violence resulting from the pandemic

So the pandemic caused these problems? Not defunding the cops, or riots or anything? The virus caused gun crime?
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MechAg94

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #265 on: June 23, 2021, 03:21:14 PM »

Here is the White House Fact Sheet on the latest push:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/06/23/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-comprehensive-strategy-to-prevent-and-respond-to-gun-crime-and-ensure-public-safety/

EDIT: Interesting snippet:

So the pandemic caused these problems? Not defunding the cops, or riots or anything? The virus caused gun crime?
Nothing about getting prosecutors who will give fewer easy plea bargains or Judges who will stop letting violent criminals out on PR bonds.
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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #266 on: June 23, 2021, 06:11:09 PM »

Biden on who gets to have guns and why you can't take on the government:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1407811027379621890
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2021/06/23/biden-reminds-2a-proponents-to-cool-it-because-theyd-need-f-15s-nukes-to-take-on-the-us-govt/

People will believe this horseshit. Somebody educate him on cannons and privateers.
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #267 on: June 23, 2021, 06:17:44 PM »

Biden on who gets to have guns and why you can't take on the government:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1407811027379621890
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2021/06/23/biden-reminds-2a-proponents-to-cool-it-because-theyd-need-f-15s-nukes-to-take-on-the-us-govt/

People will believe this horseshit. Somebody educate him on cannons and privateers.

Scary thing is I can actually see dems justifying using nukes against Americans to stay in power if push came to shove. 20 years ago I wouldn't have but today I wouldn't put anything pass them now. This isn't the first time they're brought up the subject of nukes in response to people bringing up the 2A

Tinfoil?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 06:34:22 PM by WLJ »
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cordex

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #268 on: June 23, 2021, 07:17:38 PM »

They have had so much luck with viruses that I think they’d be more tempted to go with biowarfare.

Boomhauer

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #269 on: June 23, 2021, 07:43:48 PM »

Biden on who gets to have guns and why you can't take on the government:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1407811027379621890
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2021/06/23/biden-reminds-2a-proponents-to-cool-it-because-theyd-need-f-15s-nukes-to-take-on-the-us-govt/

People will believe this horseshit. Somebody educate him on cannons and privateers.

We’d need nukes and F-15s?

The VC didn’t. Inbred goatfuckers in Afghanistan don’t have them either.

And those are two conflicts where American military members were all on the same side. A civil war? Much more divided allegiances.
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #270 on: June 23, 2021, 09:11:49 PM »

And those are two conflicts where American military members were all on the same side. A civil war? Much more divided allegiances.

Not to mention Biden doesn't control all the F-15s...

https://youtu.be/xFgNZG3gmqc?t=8
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TommyGunn

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #271 on: June 23, 2021, 11:28:05 PM »

I just saw a video of today's newscast of of President Ponysoldier's gun control blather.  What a meandering mishmash of ineffable twaddle and incomprehensible meandering mumbling.  I'm beginning to actually feel sorry for Biden.

To the degree I could understand Biden's "take" on the second amendment,  he got it exactly 180° wrong.    Was he reading from a teleprompter?   Is he still able to read?

Geeesh.  This country is in deep kimshee if our adversaries start getting frisky.  =( 
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #272 on: June 23, 2021, 11:36:27 PM »


Geeesh.  This country is in deep kimshee if our adversaries start getting frisky.  =(

They are
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MechAg94

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #273 on: June 23, 2021, 11:47:44 PM »

Not to mention Biden doesn't control all the F-15s...

https://youtu.be/xFgNZG3gmqc?t=8
Or F-16s apparently.   =)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #274 on: June 24, 2021, 12:18:52 AM »

I guess the second amendment covers fighter jets and nukes now. I'll just go ahead and sign up for those on the CMP's waiting list.
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