Author Topic: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control  (Read 61125 times)

Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #375 on: April 10, 2022, 05:04:21 PM »
Here's some of what's coming out next week:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-expected-release-ghost-gun-rule

He'll also be pushing his new ATF nominee.

It will be interesting to see what the definitions of parts, kits, and receivers ends up being.
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MikeB

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #376 on: April 10, 2022, 05:53:04 PM »
They keep talking about tracing, but what difference does that actually make? Maybe they get a straw purchaser who probably won’t be charged or convicted anyway. Most crime guns are stolen in any event and tracing does nothing.

Secondly. While I don’t trust SCOTUS, there is a specific reason so called ghost guns are legal, the Federal government has no constitutional authority to control someone making a gun in there home. The only reason they can require background checks on purchase at a FFL is that FFLs are federally licensed. I question the constitutional authority on that as well, but it is somewhat established at the moment. The Federal government telling me I can’t make my own gun not so much. This is exactly why some states allow private transfers and some don’t now.

Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #377 on: April 10, 2022, 06:05:05 PM »
They keep talking about tracing, but what difference does that actually make?

Yeah, I don't know either. Regarding tracing, what difference is there between a stolen gun with a serial number (the majority of guns used in crimes) and a non-serialized gun?

Not to mention this is all part of the "Evil Black Rifle" stuff, regardless of how infrequently they are used in crimes.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #378 on: April 10, 2022, 06:43:20 PM »
Yeah, I don't know either. Regarding tracing, what difference is there between a stolen gun with a serial number (the majority of guns used in crimes) and a non-serialized gun?

Not to mention this is all part of the "Evil Black Rifle" stuff, regardless of how infrequently they are used in crimes.

As long as they can trace it to "somebody", "somebody" can be prosecuted persecuted for the egregious offense of having owned a crime gun some time in the past. Prove it wasn't your fault.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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dogmush

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #379 on: April 10, 2022, 06:57:14 PM »
There's been 20 years of CSI type shows saying that with a serial number you can trace the gun to it's owner through the gun registry.   People believe  that is how it works, and the grabbers know this, so they use scary statements that imply  that [fictional] tracing is in jeopardy and joe public buys it.


The GhostGunner 3 can (or will in the near furure) mill a reciever from a square billet of aluminum.  The 3d printed community has been making functional semi-autos basically from scratch  for years.  Home CNCs can knock out a sub gun in less than a day. By bringing this to criminals attention the media and gov basically pointed out how easy it is to make automatic weapons or conversion sears. The Gov has lost this fight and doesn't even know it.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #380 on: April 10, 2022, 10:30:24 PM »
Yeah, I don't know either. Regarding tracing, what difference is there between a stolen gun with a serial number (the majority of guns used in crimes) and a non-serialized gun?


Or a stolen gun that has had the serial number ground off?
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Nick1911

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #381 on: April 10, 2022, 10:47:07 PM »
They keep talking about tracing, but what difference does that actually make? Maybe they get a straw purchaser who probably won’t be charged or convicted anyway. Most crime guns are stolen in any event and tracing does nothing.

Secondly. While I don’t trust SCOTUS, there is a specific reason so called ghost guns are legal, the Federal government has no constitutional authority to control someone making a gun in there home. The only reason they can require background checks on purchase at a FFL is that FFLs are federally licensed. I question the constitutional authority on that as well, but it is somewhat established at the moment. The Federal government telling me I can’t make my own gun not so much. This is exactly why some states allow private transfers and some don’t now.

Sure they do.  Under the interstate commerce clause.  Legislated, challenged up to the supreme court, and upheld.

See, if you make a gun at home, then you won't buy one, which impacts interstate commerce.  The fun part is that even holds up for things that are illegal to buy.

Caselaw, more caselaw.

Boomhauer

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #382 on: April 11, 2022, 05:59:01 AM »
There's been 20 years of CSI type shows saying that with a serial number you can trace the gun to it's owner through the gun registry. People believe  that is how it works, and the grabbers know this, so they use scary statements that imply  that [fictional] tracing is in jeopardy and joe public buys it.

I can’t count the number of times I hear some idiot in person say “Well I have guns but they are/aren’t registered with the police department” it makes me want to scream WE DON’T HAVE REGISTRATION YOU *expletive deleted*ing IDIOT
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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #383 on: April 11, 2022, 07:54:55 AM »
I can’t count the number of times I hear some idiot in person say “Well I have guns but they are/aren’t registered with the police department” it makes me want to scream WE DON’T HAVE REGISTRATION YOU *expletive deleted*ing IDIOT

Yeah, that stuff bugs me more than gun functionality stupidity in Hollywood. There's also, "Do you have a license for that gun?" even when the cops find it in a nightstand drawer, not on the person in public.
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #384 on: April 11, 2022, 09:21:42 AM »
*
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #385 on: April 11, 2022, 10:08:20 AM »
Once in a while a local reporter uses the term unlicensed and/or unregistered when referring to guns found involved in a crime usually in a manner that implies that is a crime in of itself.
Don't know if they're a transplant from Commiefornia and/or someone who's total firearm knowledge comes from TV and/or pushing their agenda. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #386 on: April 11, 2022, 10:26:09 AM »
Don't know if they're a transplant from Commiefornia and/or someone who's total firearm knowledge comes from TV and/or pushing their agenda.

Those three options are not mutually exclusive.

Just read a quote from an article about Biden's new initiative that revived the trope that ghost guns are "mostly plastic so they can't be detected by metal detectors."
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Pb

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #387 on: April 11, 2022, 11:12:11 AM »
Secondly. While I don’t trust SCOTUS, there is a specific reason so called ghost guns are legal, the Federal government has no constitutional authority to control someone making a gun in there home. The only reason they can require background checks on purchase at a FFL is that FFLs are federally licensed. I question the constitutional authority on that as well, but it is somewhat established at the moment. The Federal government telling me I can’t make my own gun not so much. This is exactly why some states allow private transfers and some don’t now.

While you are correct, that does not matter.  Courts have let the federal government do whatever they want for longer than I have been alive by agreeing that everything effects "interstate commerce" so the feds can do anything they want.  Try making your own machine gun at home, and the courts will be happy to toss you in prison if you get caught.

zxcvbob

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #388 on: April 11, 2022, 11:23:17 AM »
While you are correct, that does not matter.  Courts have let the federal government do whatever they want for longer than I have been alive by agreeing that everything effects "interstate commerce" so the feds can do anything they want.  Try making your own machine gun at home, and the courts will be happy to toss you in prison if you get caught.

I agree with both of you.  Actually, the Commerce Clause should have no bearing on the matter because the 2nd Amendment puts arms outside the reach of the CC.  That's why it's called an amendment; it amends the commerce clause and any other powers the government might draw from the Constitution to say they don't extend to guns.

But I'm not on the Supreme Court, and even if I was I don't think I could convince the rest of them that the government should forfeit that much ill-gotten power.
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WLJ

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #389 on: April 11, 2022, 12:06:51 PM »

Just read a quote from an article about Biden's new initiative that revived the trope that ghost guns are "mostly plastic so they can't be detected by metal detectors."

"That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me. You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines here and it costs more than what you make in a month!"
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MikeB

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #390 on: April 11, 2022, 12:20:25 PM »
Sure they do.  Under the interstate commerce clause.  Legislated, challenged up to the supreme court, and upheld.

See, if you make a gun at home, then you won't buy one, which impacts interstate commerce.  The fun part is that even holds up for things that are illegal to buy.

Caselaw, more caselaw.

Not entirely true. The whole reason current Federal laws only apply to FFL's is they can claim that is interstate commerce and thus they Fed government can put regulations on FFL's. This was recognized at the time, which is why the regulations work that way. The reason I said I don't trust SCOTUS is that they usually consider anything the Fed government does as allowed under that clause, but in the case of home made firearms it has not actually been tested in court yet.

Nick1911

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #391 on: April 11, 2022, 12:43:52 PM »
Not entirely true. The whole reason current Federal laws only apply to FFL's is they can claim that is interstate commerce and thus they Fed government can put regulations on FFL's. This was recognized at the time, which is why the regulations work that way. The reason I said I don't trust SCOTUS is that they usually consider anything the Fed government does as allowed under that clause, but in the case of home made firearms it has not actually been tested in court yet.

I don't agree that current Federal laws only apply to FFL's, as evidenced by things that are federal felonies for you - as an individual - to do at home.  Suppressors, auto-sears, etc.

I suppose that the particular situation of homemade firearms hasn't been tested in a supreme court case, but I don't see how it's any different than the established case law where individuals are prohibited from doing things, privately, for themselves, by themselves under the authority of the interstate commerce clause.

Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #392 on: April 11, 2022, 12:52:17 PM »
It appears the new ATF chief nominee has a bit of support from LE and some Republicans. From what I have read about him, he doesn't seem any better than Chipman.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/law-enforcement-bipartisan-prosecutors-back-biden-atf-pick
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MikeB

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #393 on: April 11, 2022, 01:18:16 PM »
I don't agree that current Federal laws only apply to FFL's, as evidenced by things that are federal felonies for you - as an individual - to do at home.  Suppressors, auto-sears, etc.

I suppose that the particular situation of homemade firearms hasn't been tested in a supreme court case, but I don't see how it's any different than the established case law where individuals are prohibited from doing things, privately, for themselves, by themselves under the authority of the interstate commerce clause.

Just look at the ways the laws currently are, they are all based around the Fed government not having the power to place laws on firearms that are not part of interstate commerce. The NFA stuff is under an exception for unusually dangerous stuff, not the exact legal term, but close enough. I disagree with it, but that is the current state.

Legal to make your own firearm for your own use including without serial number is currently legal - no interstate commerce.
Intrastate transfers don't have to follow Federal Law, some allow transfer of long guns, some pistols, some none. Up to the state. - no interstate commerce.

There are other examples, the reason these are setup the way they are is that the Federal government recognized at the time they could not legally control this stuff. Of course SCOTUS will continue to screw us most likely once it does get tested by them, but as of now, it isn't legal for Federal government to control this stuff.

T.O.M.

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #394 on: April 11, 2022, 07:40:09 PM »
I think this discussion may explain why biden talked extensively about kits being ordered and delivered to people at home.  That would put them into interstate commerce, as opposed to a 3D home printed gun.  Wonder if the DOJ attorneys told them that data transfers of plans are not interstate commerce. 
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Jim147

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #395 on: April 11, 2022, 08:13:11 PM »
If it's not a kit is it ok or are they going to want numbers on every part?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #396 on: April 11, 2022, 08:25:17 PM »
One analysis I saw seemed to think this rule could.be stretched to require sn#s on slides and frames on semiauto pistols.
Any rumblings coming from our side about lawsuits yet?
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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #397 on: April 11, 2022, 08:46:23 PM »
One analysis I saw seemed to think this rule could.be stretched to require sn#s on slides and frames on semiauto pistols.
Any rumblings coming from our side about lawsuits yet?

I just saw GOA is getting ready to drop a suit. The GOA attorney also said that the wording of this could enfold uppers and even individual parts.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #398 on: April 11, 2022, 09:13:02 PM »
I just saw GOA is getting ready to drop a suit. The GOA attorney also said that the wording of this could enfold uppers and even individual parts.

Not only "could" -- if you read the intro to the rule, it's clear that they want to clean up the problem of whether the upper or lower part of the receiver is "the" firearm in an AR-15. It's an easy read -- only 364 pages of legalese.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/rulemaking/final-rule-2021r-05f-definition-frame-or-receiver-and-identification/download

Quote
However, a restrictive application of these definitions would not describe the frame or receiver of most firearms currently in circulation in the United States.  Most modern weapon designs, including semiautomatic rifles and pistols with detachable magazines, have a split or multi-piece receiver where the relevant fire control components are housed by more than one part of the weapon (e.g., the upper receiver and lower receiver of an AR-15 rifle), or incorporate a striker to fire the weapon, rather than a hammer.
...
For these many reasons, ATF is promulgating a rule that would bring clarity to the def inition of “frame or receiver” by providing an updated, more comprehensive definition.  On May 21, 2021, the Department published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (“NPRM”) in the Federal Register, 86 FR 27720, proposing to redefine the term “frame or receiver” as that which provides housing or a structure to hold or integrate one or more fire control components.  In light of the comments received, this final rule revises the proposed definition of “frame or receiver” so that a “frame” is applicable to a handgun, and variants thereof, and a “receiver” is applicable to a rifle, shotgun, or projectile weapon other than a handgun, and variants thereof.  Moreover, “frame or receiver” will be defined to describe only a single part that provides housing or a structure for one specific, primary fire control component of weapons that expel a projectile, or one specific, primary internal sound reduction component of firearm mufflers or silencers. 
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Ben

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Re: Looks like Biden is Ready to Move on Gun Control
« Reply #399 on: April 11, 2022, 09:45:42 PM »
Armed Attorneys are suggesting that current arms will be grandfathered, but after the rule goes into effect, all uppers afterwards will potentially become a firearm.

Quote
Fugettaboutit
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Fugettaboutit
29 minutes ago
So according to the ATF's released ruling, AR upper receivers will stay the same at least for the time being.  A la, don't need to be serialized.  But is that only for the time being and 'grandfathered' existing stock...with all uppers needing to be serialized at a certain date forward?  Or will it always be the same way it was?

2

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19 minutes ago
Correct. Rule has been released- we have a bit more info. There is a grandfather clause for existing items. The serialized upper requirement would only apply to future component-receivers and firearm-receivers after the rule goes into effect.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi1LAe9wgY0
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