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Author Topic: Red Pill festival, Montana this July  (Read 462 times)

gunsmith

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Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« on: April 06, 2021, 07:43:02 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnTZ15q7Nkg

https://theredpillfestival.com/

seems like it might be fun.

any of you guys heard/know about it?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 07:03:48 AM »

Kind of weird for Jordan Page to be playing there.  He's normally affiliated with more Libertarian/Agorist/AnCap events.  The rest of the speakers make me think it's a venue for Trumpers to lick their wounds and find some solidarity.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

230RN

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 06:02:07 PM »

No offense to anyone, and I sympathize, but I think we'd have done a lot better if we had soft-pedaled the religion stuff a lot sooner in the game.

For example, as much as these things may be "G-d-given" rights, referring to them as "natural rights" would have appealed to larger segments of the population.

"Clinging to their guns and Bibles." was a powerful public relations victory.  I've said it before: the Leftists have a much better handle on PR than we do.  We are in Kindergarten by comparison.

Yeah, I've heard it before that soft-pedaling the religious aspect of politics would somehow be offensive to G-d, but if I may speak for G-d (as everyone else claims to), it strikes me that sometimes fighting the battle without handicapping ourselves by dumb PR moves would be better.

Be as passionately religious within your own garden gates as you want, but soft pedal your religious fervor otherwise.

There are times when it would be better to hide your faith under a basket.

I said it, I've said it before, and I'll say it again when necessary.

Terry, 230RN


We  have got to stop putting fuzzy-headed Nannies in positions of political power.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 06:42:25 PM »

No offense to anyone, and I sympathize, but I think we'd have done a lot better if we had soft-pedaled the religion stuff a lot sooner in the game.

For example, as much as these things may be "G-d-given" rights, referring to them as "natural rights" would have appealed to larger segments of the population.

Are you referring to something in one of the links? I guess I missed it.

As for "God-given," versus "natural," I think it really depends on who you're talking to. Just speaking for myself, "natural rights" has no emotional appeal that isn't already conveyed by the word "rights" all by itself. (Though, yes, I do understand the meaning of the term.) On the other hand, telling me to claim my "God-given rights" is galvanizing. It conveys the idea that someone is trying to take away what God Himself has given me. And that God Himself expects me to preserve those rights for others. 



Quote
Be as passionately religious within your own garden gates as you want, but soft pedal your religious fervor otherwise.

There are times when it would be better to hide your faith under a basket.

Well, now you're contradicting the God worshipped by the largest organized religious groups in America, who specifically said not to hide our light, and told His followers to go to "the ends of the Earth" with their religious fervor.

A free country where people expect the religious to keep our faith private is not much of a free country. As I've said before (I think) people are very confused about what "public" and "private" really mean. Faith should be private, in the sense that we should not have the kind of established church that obtained in ancien régime Europe. That doesn't mean we should be hesitant to talk about religion in public, or carefully segregate our religious beliefs from other aspects of life.
 
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Ron

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 07:02:03 PM »

No offense to anyone, and I sympathize, but I think we'd have done a lot better if we had soft-pedaled the religion stuff a lot sooner in the game.

For example, as much as these things may be "G-d-given" rights, referring to them as "natural rights" would have appealed to larger segments of the population.

"Clinging to their guns and Bibles." was a powerful public relations victory.  I've said it before: the Leftists have a much better handle on PR than we do.  We are in Kindergarten by comparison.

Yeah, I've heard it before that soft-pedaling the religious aspect of politics would somehow be offensive to G-d, but if I may speak for G-d (as everyone else claims to), it strikes me that sometimes fighting the battle without handicapping ourselves by dumb PR moves would be better.

Be as passionately religious within your own garden gates as you want, but soft pedal your religious fervor otherwise.

There are times when it would be better to hide your faith under a basket.

I said it, I've said it before, and I'll say it again when necessary.

Terry, 230RN

Reality is offensive to many yet it is still reality.

You are wrong. Soft peddling the religious nature of natural rights is a mistake.  (don't be mad at me for being blunt)

If rights are a part of reality then drilling down to the beginning, the foundation of reality is paramount.

Either life came to be through chaos and mechanics or through design, design implies a BEING not mechanics.

The operating principle of reality is either order or it is chaos. There is no balance, one or the other prevails and will eventually prevail permanently. Choose your side wisely.

Either there is a telos, a purpose to everything (outside of your mind) or there is no purpose, no meaning to anything. Just impersonal interactions of impersonal, non-being, stuff.

Either BEING is first and is the ground floor of reality or non-being is first and the ground floor of reality, a materialism ruled by entropy, everything flowing downhill from here to heat death.

Your position is the position of the modern philosophers.

Time + chaos does not eventually bring forth a being known here as 230RN.

Time + chaos only equals chaos. To get anything else requires an intervention of order by a rational being imposing his will. 

There is an ordering principle, an ordering law to reality. There is absolutely zero evidence or reason to believe that everything is the result of chaos and chance. Zero evidence.

In fact all the evidence, including the obvious, personal transcendent experience of "being" you are experiencing right now as you read this scream out in opposition to that irrational position.

I'm a fan of natural law only because it is a halfway house to acknowledging the reality of natures God.

We are where we are (a world of confusion) because of the soft peddling the foundations of rational thought, the Creator.

The true foundation is the rational Creator who created a universe that is knowable by rational creatures.

Not only is the universe knowable, but the Creator is knowable to all those who seek Him.

Rights are bound to the nature of being.

The ultimate Being, God, has given us rights and obligations.

Shall we obey God or man?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 07:58:07 PM by Ron »
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Lennyjoe

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 07:10:43 AM »

I obey God.  I respect mans laws as guided in scripture

Grandpa Shooter

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 09:01:09 PM »

I just read the 3 responses directly above this ^^^ and all I can say is Wow, I like each of them.  I live my values and faith as my entire being, not a cloak to put on and take off when convenient, or to appease anyone.  I know God and follow His will as best I can as an inherently flawed individual.  I don't personally make a big distinction between natural law and God given rights because God is Nature therefore natural and God given are synonymous.  I learned along time ago the hard way that some folks will reject God and no matter how hard I tried I could not convince them otherwise.  Now I speak quietly of my faith and if asked, I expand the conversation.  Soft pedaling religion might be better at times, but soft pedaling faith is denying the very essence of God.  Religion is man made, faith is a conscious act of acknowledging God and all He is.

230RN

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2021, 11:05:51 AM »

Quoting Grandpa Shooter out of context, of course, but...

Quote
Now I speak quietly of my faith and if asked, I expand the conversation.  Soft pedaling religion might be better at times, but soft pedaling faith is denying the very essence of God.  Religion is man made, faith is a conscious act of acknowledging God and all He is.

That's all I was trying to say, really. I'm not claiming that Grandpa Shooterr agrees with me, just that that particular choice of words fits my thinking.  Y' gotta remember your market.

We're not trying to get more people into Church; we're trying to get more people into the shooting sports.

And however you want to parse out "G-d-given Rights" versus "Natural Rights," the latter, one might agree, triggers less of the "clinging to their guns and Bible depolorables"  reaction.

Just as "modern sporting rIfle" is supposed to trigger fewer "right-wing redneck" reactions than "assault rifle."

Hey, it's not blasphemy, after all.

I said it before, that "we" are fumbling, bumbling public relations idiots compared to the left-wingers, as much as we like to use the term "libtards" and such.

I rest my case.

Terry, 230RN

Edited for housekeeping. 
We  have got to stop putting fuzzy-headed Nannies in positions of political power.

gunsmith

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2021, 11:52:17 AM »

 I listened to one of the guitar players songs, it was really good.
 I do wish "our" side was better at media and marketing.
 the religious stuff went right over my head, I totally missed it.
in my opinion, people mentioning God and praying at public events is really awesome.
it is second nature and if its in what i linked here, i didn't even notice
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".

Out where there are miles and miles of miles and miles.

Ron

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2021, 03:59:50 PM »

Quoting Grandpa Shooter out of context, of course, but...

That's all I was trying to say, really. I'm not claiming that Grandpa Shooterr agrees with me, just that that particular choice of words fits my thinking.  Y' gotta remember your market.

We're not trying to get more people into Church; we're trying to get more people into the shooting sports.

And however you want to parse out "G-d-given Rights" versus "Natural Rights," the latter, one might agree, triggers less of the "clinging to their guns and Bible depolorables"  reaction.

Just as "modern sporting rIfle" is supposed to trigger fewer "right-wing redneck" reactions than "assault rifle."

Hey, it's not blasphemy, after all.

I said it before, that "we" are fumbling, bumbling public relations idiots compared to the left-wingers, as much as we like to use the term "libtards" and such.

I rest my case.

Terry, 230RN

Edited for housekeeping.

The problem is "natural rights" are for all intensive purposes dead in our system as far as I can tell.

They are dead because they were stripped of their foundation.

That was really my point.

It's not only natural rights, does anyone in the modern law establishment even subscribe to natural law anymore?

Our whole system rejects the foundation of Americas founding documents.

I guess I grant you that speaking in terms of natural rights vs God given rights might serve to not alienate some folks. The problem is eventually you have to define "why" they are inalienable and natural. Then you have no choice other than go metaphysical.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 04:13:12 PM by Ron »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 05:10:01 PM »


We're not trying to get more people into Church; we're trying to get more people into the shooting sports.


Wait, what?

Why are we supposed to be all about guns, now, and not about church? I'm sorry, but I don't think we'll bring America back by just focusing on guns. America has some serious, spiritual, and social ills. Madnesses, really. We need a lot of things, but "getting people back into church" is beyond doubt the most important thing.

Besides you're going to need the church people with you, so please play nice.
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Ron

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2021, 05:34:00 PM »

Wait, what?

Why are we supposed to be all about guns, now, and not about church? I'm sorry, but I don't think we'll bring America back by just focusing on guns. America has some serious, spiritual, and social ills. Madnesses, really. We need a lot of things, but "getting people back into church" is beyond doubt the most important thing.

Besides you're going to need the church people with you, so please play nice.

He is speaking of APS, its mission or intended target audience, not us as individuals I suspect, that's how I read it at least.

While I'm in favor of "getting people back into (a good) church" we have already seen the states ability to shut down church worship.

People seeking God, learning about and aligning their lives with Gods purposes individually is even more important these days. The ability to freely congregate can be taken away by government mandate we now know. With little to zero pushback.

“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”
The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe.

Who can escape their own cognitive biases?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2021, 06:25:36 PM »

Ron,

I was unaware that, as a member of APS, I agreed to prioritize guns over God. In other words, I don't think your interpretation of 230's comment checks out.

Also, I thought about clarifying that I was only using church attendance as a synecdoche for Christian faith and practice, because that was the metric 230 went with. I decided I shouldn't need to do that, because the reader should be able to figure that out from the context. And people insist on twisting what one says, anyhow, so why bother?
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Ron

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2021, 07:38:30 PM »

"synecdoche", what a great word!

My church comments were more of a rabbit trail of thoughts I'd already been having rather than a commentary on your use of the word as a synecdoche.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 08:38:58 PM by Ron »
The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe.

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grampster

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2021, 09:21:25 PM »

Our Foundational American experiment was based on the fact that there is something more than us...a creative force...a guiding principal that men could grasp because it was true and unchangeable. That Men could not be trusted to be good...so we needed Something or Someone outside of us.

Many of us believe that Someone is God...the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further many of us also accept the redeeming sacrifice, death and resurrection of the 2nd person of the Triune God.

I ran across something the other day when I was re-reading mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis that sort of rounded up for me how I should look at my behavior and contributions:  "If Someone Else made me, for His own purposes, then I shall have a lot of duties which I should not have if I simply belonged to myself."  That book by Lewis is a good one to read if you are a believer and even if you are not...Lewis being an atheist who reasoned his way into not only being a Christian, but one of the greatest Christian apologists of the 20th Century.  While I'm on books, there is another one for Christians and others that is very interesting.  Josh McDowell's book called Evidence that Demands a Verdict.  McDowell was also an atheist who reasoned and researched his way into being a Christian.

I know and understand that some here do not have any sort of belief in God.  But when in discussions with folks of that state of mind I generally hear them say that they don't need a God, that they are fully capable of being a nice person anyway.  My reflection and usually unstated reply to that would be, "Why bother?"  If chaos rules, why not embrace it?  Yet looking back at C. S. Lewis' words, they could be held to be, at least, good advice even if that Someone Else was not embraced.

I guess what I am trying to say is that America has lost something.  I think it has to do mostly with we have become more selfish than we usually are or were...and it shows.

Sorry if this sounds like gibberish.
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gunsmith

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2021, 01:51:37 AM »

GOOD OLD FASHIONED THREAD DRIFT

oops - sorry cap lock was on-


now I have to look up a new word "sydnechrome" or sumthing
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".

Out where there are miles and miles of miles and miles.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2021, 02:49:39 AM »

Sadly most people will only maintain a certain moral and ethical standard so long as they believe they will have to answer to a higher authority, the concept of god and inescapable judgement maintains this psychological pressure when people are in positions of unanswerable authority.

Ron

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2021, 08:13:28 AM »

Sadly most people will only maintain a certain moral and ethical standard so long as they believe they will have to answer to a higher authority, the concept of god and inescapable judgement maintains this psychological pressure when people are in positions of unanswerable authority.


From a Christian or Theist position, that's because hierarchy, the natural order and justice are built into our firmware. The Creator is revealed in the creation.

Once you become your own god and reject your built in knowledge of the creator you are free to rationalize away any moral and ethical standard you desire.

We have centuries of literature written to help us not only rationalize away moral and ethical standards but actually invert right and wrong, deny hierarchy and embrace chaos over order. That which is good, beautiful and true becomes "Evil" and that which is corrupt, debased and full of lies becomes the "Good".   

It is good to try and stay in alignment with your revealed intuitive knowledge of the Creators law, even if you reject Him at this time.

It is better to give thanks and glory to the Creator who has fashioned us and given us free will, by choosing to follow Him and His way.



The wish not to believe can influence as strongly as the wish to believe.

Who can escape their own cognitive biases?

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2021, 07:17:08 PM »


From a Christian or Theist position, that's because hierarchy, the natural order and justice are built into our firmware. The Creator is revealed in the creation.

Once you become your own god and reject your built in knowledge of the creator you are free to rationalize away any moral and ethical standard you desire.

We have centuries of literature written to help us not only rationalize away moral and ethical standards but actually invert right and wrong, deny hierarchy and embrace chaos over order. That which is good, beautiful and true becomes "Evil" and that which is corrupt, debased and full of lies becomes the "Good".   

It is good to try and stay in alignment with your revealed intuitive knowledge of the Creators law, even if you reject Him at this time.

It is better to give thanks and glory to the Creator who has fashioned us and given us free will, by choosing to follow Him and His way.

The point I was making was that from a secular psychological analysis with regard to pack/tribal behavior and the in built desire to please the alpha/leader which overrides selfish desire.  Regardless of actual diety existence, a person thinking there is one is enough to trigger the aforementioned neural programming.

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2021, 08:50:11 PM »

Sadly most people will only maintain a certain moral and ethical standard so long as they believe they will have to answer to a higher authority, the concept of god and inescapable judgement maintains this psychological pressure when people are in positions of unanswerable authority.

Coming from a Christian perspective, I've noticed some non-believers will pat themselves on the back for not needing an invisible man in the sky to make them behave. And some parts of God's law they'll actually keep - they don't steal, or murder, and they might engage in charity. But many of them will break other divine laws, engaging in sexual immorality or dishonesty or what-have-you. If challenged on these things, most would probably point out that they don't think such things are wrong, or that everyone does such things. Which would seem to belie the notion that some people are good all on their own. On our own, we don't even have a very clear picture of what good is. Or sometimes, our picture is a photo-negative, taking good for evil, and evil for good.
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Ron

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2021, 09:53:30 PM »

The point I was making was that from a secular psychological analysis with regard to pack/tribal behavior and the in built desire to please the alpha/leader which overrides selfish desire.  Regardless of actual diety existence, a person thinking there is one is enough to trigger the aforementioned neural programming.
got ya

How about farther back yet?  Pleasing the family elders or patriarch. Pleasing Dad and Mom. Hierarchy is human.

You would probably like the books of Jonathan Haidt if you aren't already familiar with them.

 

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Who can escape their own cognitive biases?

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2021, 10:34:16 PM »

I listened to one of the guitar players songs, it was really good.
 I do wish "our" side was better at media and marketing.
 the religious stuff went right over my head, I totally missed it.
in my opinion, people mentioning God and praying at public events is really awesome.
it is second nature and if its in what i linked here, i didn't even notice
As far as guns go, I think our side has done just fine at media and marketing.  That is why Youtube and other social media outlets started trying to clamp down on guns.  They realized all these videos showing people safely enjoying the shooting sports was winning people over. 
IMO, the general opinion of the public toward gun rights is still ahead of what it was in say 1990.
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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2021, 07:21:28 AM »

I bet there are plenty of people on "our side" who wish we would soft-pedal guns, because issues more important to them might be more palatable to some people if icky guns weren't part of the package.

230RN

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2021, 12:37:53 PM »

The problem is "natural rights" are for all intensive purposes dead in our system as far as I can tell.

They are dead because they were stripped of their foundation.

That was really my point.

It's not only natural rights, does anyone in the modern law establishment even subscribe to natural law anymore?

Our whole system rejects the foundation of Americas founding documents.

I guess I grant you that speaking in terms of natural rights vs God given rights might serve to not alienate some folks. The problem is eventually you have to define "why" they are inalienable and natural. Then you have no choice other than go metaphysical.

Basic agreement here except for the kind of Natural Rights we are talking about.

Because by "Natural Rights," I am referring to the fact that just about every creature on earth has some means of defending itself... be it by claws, teeth, massive bulk, stench, taste, camouflage, or whatever the Great Organic Designer (G-d) chose.

Folllowing this thought, it is "natural" for we humans to own the invented means of defense, that is, uninfringed arms. 

For myself, I have neither bul/k, nor claws, nor fangs, nor a stench or lousy taste that anybody's complained about.

Hell, I can't even run very fast.

So, just as even the fuzziest of cute kittens with its concealed claws has the Natural Right of self defense, so do I.  So the rights were there in nature, long before our founding documents or philosophies were written.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 01:16:16 PM by 230RN »
We  have got to stop putting fuzzy-headed Nannies in positions of political power.

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Re: Red Pill festival, Montana this July
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2021, 05:42:29 AM »

Quote
Great Organic Designer (G-d) chose.

 OMG that's awesome! I am totally incorporating that phrase into my vocabulary!
thanks!
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".

Out where there are miles and miles of miles and miles.
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