Two men dead after self-driving Tesla crash, authorities said

[MechAg94]

https://abc13.com/tesla-crash-battery-fire-driverless-2-killed-in/10525148/

The Tesla was traveling from a cul-de-sac on Hammock Dunes Place and did not negotiate a curve. The vehicle crashed into a tree before bursting into flames.

Crews found two bodies inside the vehicle, a man in the front passenger seat and another man in the back passenger seat.

The batteries on board the Tesla continued to ignite despite efforts to douse the flames, authorities said. It reportedly took around four hours and more than 30,000 gallons of water before firefighters decided to let the fire burn itself out.

Isn't the Tesla one of those cars that expects you to take over driving if the computer can't figure out what to do? 

[dogmush]

I'm a little out of the most recent Tesla news, but I don't think actual "Full Self Driving" has been rolled out in anything other than beta testing yet.

What Tesla markets as "Autopilot" right now is just a very advanced navigation and lane keeping assist.  It actually requires you to keep your hands on the wheel and give it occasional inputs or it will get pissy and disengage.  To my knowledge no self driving cars have been cleared for use by the DOT.

So someone on a test drive didn't understand the tech, and wrecked a car, apparently going pretty quick.  The news reports said that no one was in the drivers seat at the time of the crash, and that is definitely not how you are supposed to use the autopilot feature.

As far as the lithium burning, with the amount of hybrid and EV's on the road now, fire departments need to already have a plan for extinguishing Class D fires.  Sounds like these Firefighters aren't to good at their jobs.

[Fly320s]

Isn't the Tesla one of those cars that expects you to take over driving if the computer can't figure out what to do?

Correct.  There is not a single vehicle in America that has been approved for full self-driving mode.

I own a Tesla 3.  I absolutely do not trust it to self-drive.  I will occasionally use the auto-steer feature on the highway, but I treat that like cruise control, not an auto pilot.

[Ron]

On the news this morning they reported the fire dept reached out to Tesla for advice as the the batteries kept reigniting, four times the fire reignited. 

[WLJ]

On a related note
I can remember reading an article a number of years ago when Toyota Priuses became popular on how firemen had to trained on how put out battery fires and how to cut people out of one due to the electrical wiring running through the vehicle being a shock hazard.

[zxcvbob]

A lot of cars use magnesium components in the steering column, and probably elsewhere now.  If that ignites (it takes a pretty hot fire to get it started) it can be a real surprise to firefighters.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

I don't think the biggest problem is the Tesla's ability - or lack thereof - to drive itself. The problem is with those batteries whether or not the car is being driven by someone or itself. I think Tesla will end up with the mother of all lawsuits over this incident.

I doubt Tesla's engineers will be able to say they didn't know that magnesium actually burns better under water than in the open air. I only have a high school diploma and know that about magnesium. The level of oxygen in water is much more dense than in open air, and unless those batteries can somehow be isolated to prevent igniting the magnesium, then ban those batteries or the use of magnesium in those automobiles.

There aren't many if any fire departments with enough purple-K on hand to extinguish such large fires, and I doubt Tesla and other car manufacturers would be willing to surround the magnesium in their vehicles with enough purple-K or it's equivalent to contain such a fire.

These "technical advancements" have far outpaced their practicality, safety, and are not ready for universal use; or even on a small scale that puts people's lives at risk.   

Woody

[MechAg94]

Is there magnesium in the batteries?   Cars/trucks have used magnesium alloys for engine blocks for a while.  Not sure if they still do.
I would have though the batteries shorting/discharging would be a cause of the fire reigniting. 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Is there magnesium in the batteries?   Cars/trucks have used magnesium alloys for engine blocks for a while.  Not sure if they still do.
I would have though the batteries shorting/discharging would be a cause of the fire reigniting.

The old VW Beatles and Minivans had magnesium engine blocks. There was never enough magnesium that couldn't be left to extinguish on its own, or be hosed away from the vehicle as it melted and dripped beneath the vehicle from its own heat as it burned.

Woody

[MechAg94]

I was thinking a Magnesium-aluminum alloy was used in a lot of cars, but the internet says it isn't as common there, but is commonly used in other parts.

[dogmush]

I don't think the biggest problem is the Tesla's ability - or lack thereof - to drive itself. The problem is with those batteries whether or not the car is being driven by someone or itself. I think Tesla will end up with the mother of all lawsuits over this incident.

I doubt Tesla's engineers will be able to say they didn't know that magnesium actually burns better under water than in the open air. I only have a high school diploma and know that about magnesium. The level of oxygen in water is much more dense than in open air, and unless those batteries can somehow be isolated to prevent igniting the magnesium, then ban those batteries or the use of magnesium in those automobiles.

There aren't many if any fire departments with enough purple-K on hand to extinguish such large fires, and I doubt Tesla and other car manufacturers would be willing to surround the magnesium in their vehicles with enough purple-K or it's equivalent to contain such a fire.

These "technical advancements" have far outpaced their practicality, safety, and are not ready for universal use; or even on a small scale that puts people's lives at risk.   

Woody

There's no magnesium in Tesla batteries.  It's Lithium.  Lithium-ion batts are the standard for all (as far as I know) EV's and hybrid vehicles now.  Perhaps the first gen Prius' (Prii?) and Honda Insights had Ni-Cad's but they are all Lithium based batteries now.

Lithium-Ion batteries will combust at room temperature if exposed to ruptured (and at moderate temps if not exposed to air).  The electrolyte is the initial fuel, and if given enough oxygen will ignite the Lithium metal causing a class D (burning metal) fire.  With the proliferation of Li-Ion bats in every damn thing these days there's no excuse for a fire department to not have the appropriate extinguishing agents on hand.

[BobR]

I remember reading a while back that once you had a vehicle with Li-ion battery pack catch on fire you would want to move it to a clear area for at least 4 hours in case of re-combustion. I wonder if this was the case, they thought it was out and then it kept re-igniting. Whatever the reason the local FD should have had a better handle on it. They did use an impressive amount of water on it though, 32,000  gallons.

bob

[dogmush]

You can drop mot burning metals in the ocean and they won't go out.  It's hot enough that it will break H2O and burn the resulting gasses.

You can fight them by spraying with a fine mist to cool the metal below combustion temp (not a great plan for lithium, because it combusts at room temp) or encasing in something (sand will work, purple K is better) to cut off oxygen.

Depending on how they sprayed that 32,000 gals of water the FD may have just fed the fire.

[Fly320s]

According to this, Purple K doesn't work on class D fires.  https://www.chemguard.com/fire-suppression/catalog/dry-chemicals/pp1003.aspx

[ConstitutionCowboy]

According to this, Purple K doesn't work on class D fires.  https://www.chemguard.com/fire-suppression/catalog/dry-chemicals/pp1003.aspx

It doesn't actually say it doesn't work on magnesium. When I was in the Navy (1966 to 1970), Purple-K was what we were told to use on magnesium fires because it melted and formed a glass-like shield over the magnesium and starved it of oxygen. Obviously, progress has been made in the ensuing 50 years or so and better chemicals have been devised.

Woody

[Boomhauer]

Wonder if they were trying to film a TikTok video. It’s a thing on TikTok for *expletive deleted*in idiots to show Tesla’s going down the road nobody in the driver seat

[lee n. field]

Two die after Tesla ‘on auto-pilot with no one in driving seat’ crashes into tree and starts a massive four-hour fire that took 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish. One guy was in the passenger seat, one was sitting in the back, nobody in the driver’s seat. Sounds kind of like somebody could have beaten two people to death, loaded them in the car, drove and dropped himself off wherever, and then the car was remote steered off into a tree

https://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/news-briefs-04-19-2021/

[MechAg94]

I was thinking they tried to do a video, but screwed up the speed setting and the car took off.  I don't know how Tesla controls work though.

[WLJ]

Elon Musk
@elonmusk
·
4h
Your research as a private individual is better than professionals
@WSJ
!

Data logs recovered so far show Autopilot was not enabled & this car did not purchase FSD.

Moreover, standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on, which this street did not have.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1384254194975010826?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3Aelonmusk%7Ctwgr%5EeyJ0ZndfZXhwZXJpbWVudHNfY29va2llX2V4cGlyYXRpb24iOnsiYnVja2V0IjoxMjA5NjAwLCJ2ZXJzaW9uIjpudWxsfSwidGZ3X2hvcml6b25fdHdlZXRfZW1iZWRfOTU1NSI6eyJidWNrZXQiOiJodGUiLCJ2ZXJzaW9uIjpudWxsfX0%3D%7Ctwcon%5Etimelinechrome&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.starshipstalker.com%2F

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Eh ... Murder/suicide by Tesla?

Woody

[MechAg94]

Maybe no seat belt and driver was thrown to the other side of the car.

[RoadKingLarry]

I remember reading a while back that once you had a vehicle with Li-ion battery pack catch on fire you would want to move it to a clear area for at least 4 hours in case of re-combustion. I wonder if this was the case, they thought it was out and then it kept re-igniting. Whatever the reason the local FD should have had a better handle on it. They did use an impressive amount of water on it though, 32,000  gallons.

bob

So, kind of like murderous trick birthday cake  candles then...

[Nick1911]

Random side note:  Portable class D fire extinguishers are shockingly expensive.  We have need for them where I work due to a very real threat of metal fire, (we had one occur 2 years ago)  I couldn't believe it when I found out how much that firefighting gear cost.

Perhaps the other way of looking at it is that class ABC stuff is remarkably cheap due to economies of scale.

[Fly320s]

Would a bucket of dry sand work?

[Hawkmoon]

https://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/news-briefs-04-19-2021/