Author Topic: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?  (Read 3942 times)

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2021, 10:15:35 AM »
Unfortunately a mounted tank isn't an option. I'd love a diesel for the efficiency and reliability, but they are just too darned expensive for what I'm trying to accomplish. Also, I have access to non-oxygenated gasoline so storage isn't an issue. Easy enough to use it in the truck and refill the fuel containers every six months or so to keep the fuel rotated and fresh.

Brad
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 10:48:33 PM by Brad Johnson »
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charby

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2021, 11:28:00 AM »
How much fuel are you allowed to store in your property? I'm going to guess probably not more than a couple days worth for the generator. My experience that a larger gas generator is going to burn about a gallon of fuel per hour at half load.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2021, 02:23:33 PM »
Trying to get a number from the city, but they're in a zoning revamp right now and I gave up trying to find someone who will give me a straight answer. I figure what they don't know won't hurt them, and it wouldn't be more than twenty or thirty gallons anyway. How much exactly is entirely dependent on energy rationing strategies and I'm still mulling those over.

Giving some thought to a hybrid solution... a generator to power the panel combined with a battery-based power unit for fridge and freezer. Something like the Jackery Explorer 1000 or similar. That would give 24/7 power for food storage, firing up the the generator only enough to recharge the power unit or to supply as-needed supplemental power. Using typical demand estimators and a couple of in-use reviews, I figure the 1000 would probably give us a rolling 12 hr schedule (4-6 hrs on battery and 6-8 on generator). The power unit would be handy for day-to-day uses, too. At only 22lbs and relatively small, I can think of a whole host of uses for it. Only downside is price. It's a spendy little sucker.

The probability of losing power more than 48 hours is very, very low so I'm using three days as my spread, including last-resort contingencies to five days in case we're unable to relocate (extremely unlikely for multiple reasons, at least in the context of most-probable scenarios).

This will be set up as a stop-gap, a short term solution. If it's going to be more than that, we have friends and family spread all over Texas, eastern New Mexico, and southern Oklahoma. Plenty of alternate locations. If it comes to it, we'll mothball the house and head to more hospitable environs.

Brad
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 10:50:04 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

charby

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2021, 08:31:03 AM »
I think that National Fire Code only allows up to 25 gallons of fuel in approved containers to be stored at a residential property. Hopefully you have a detached shed away from your house and neighbors houses.

I've been thinking about a whole house generator after I get s new roof and HVAC system. No matter what price out on setting up for a portable 10kw generator, it's still cheaper in the end for a NG stationary 10kw generator to be installed.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2021, 10:41:17 AM »
I can have a viable and reasonably full-function short term emergency power setup for around $2k, including the generator. Is it as convenient as an automated whole-house unit? Nope, not by a long shot. However, for the $10k (minimum) difference in cost, I'm willing to live with a few minor inconveniences.

If I were going to setup for longer-term 24/7 power, I could easily adapt to an NG-powered genset and still utilize the generator inlet port I'm having installed. There are tri-fuel gensets available and running an NG hookup to the back of the house would be simple and relatively inexpensive. No real need, though, as the scenarios we'll most likely face are short term. Tornado? Extremely localized. We can relocate. Severe winter weather? Around here that's a couple of days, tops. Even the recent extreme cold spell that had us in such a tailspin only lasted four days. My main concern is grid-wide loss of power, and that will likely be in the dead of summer when energy demand is highest. At that point, my primary focus will be food preservation and comms. I can't justify the expense of an automated whole house unit when I can easily meet that need with a more modest and much less expensive setup.

Would I go full-auto whole house if we could without putting us in a bind? In a heartbeat. However, the $9500 check we just wrote to the IRS pretty much guts our discretionary cash. We have an emergency reserve but it doesn't get touched for something like this.

Brad
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 03:19:41 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

charby

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2021, 04:09:50 PM »
My wife can't even start my baby toro snowblower or lawn tractor and I can be gone from work for several days/nights in a row. I'll need to get an NG automatic whole hmmmm house generator.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2021, 11:40:01 AM »
Pulled the trigger.

Champion 8750 Hybrid Inverter Genset (Hybrid in Champion-Speak means an inverter genset in an open-frame configuration)
GE T050N inlet box
Iron Box 30-to-50 cable (IBX-6112-25)
GenInterlock panel interlock kit

The only other main part is cabling between the inlet box and breaker panel. I'll let the electrician provide as part of the install. If all goes to plan he's supposed to be here mid-July.

I figure a simple battery tender to keep things healthy. If I get industrious I might put a quick-disconnect on the battery for storage convenience. Maybe replace the battery every year or two as a preventive maintenance item.

The only other issue still in play is fuel storage. I'm waffling between four 5-gallon race jugs and a single 55 gallon drum (race jugs = no frustrating EPA-mandated hose/spout). Drum would be more fuel, but then there's the hassle of storage location and fuel transfer. Jugs would be easier in terms of handling/storage/fueling but there's the issue of long-term fuel storage in plastic containers.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

cordex

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2021, 11:57:17 AM »
Another option: https://colemans.com/nato-military-jerry-can

Steel can, accepts a variety of nozzles, seals well.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2021, 12:22:53 PM »
Another option: https://colemans.com/nato-military-jerry-can

Steel can, accepts a variety of nozzles, seals well.

Thanks!

I wonder how well they can be relied on to not be full of rust.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

cordex

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2021, 01:17:59 PM »
I wonder how well they can be relied on to not be full of rust.
I bought four when they were on sale for $25 each.  The outsides had quite a bit of grime but the insides were pristine. 

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2021, 02:06:05 PM »
Can you still get sealing rings for them?

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

cordex

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2021, 02:36:03 PM »
Can you still get sealing rings for them?
Yes.  The gaskets in mine were good, though.

JTHunter

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2021, 10:18:16 PM »
How about the aluminum 30 gallon barrels that hold beer?  (A "kegger" !)
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2021, 09:21:23 AM »
How about the aluminum 30 gallon barrels that hold beer?  (A "kegger" !)

That's for fueling me, not the generator.  =D

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2021, 12:20:04 PM »
Decided to bite the bullet and get a couple of Wavian's. Spendy, but I figure it's worth it to not have to worry.

Last of the main parts got here a couple days ago. Only things left are the gas cans and an Amazon-sourced battery tender. Electrician is supposed to install the inlet box end of next week. Short of a break-in cycle for the generator, I should be good to go.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2021, 12:07:01 PM »
The cans arrived yesterday. Purty.

Now waiting for the flex spout. Wavian was out of stock so I ordered two from Bob's Machine... who it turns out was also out of stock but didn't reflect that status on their web page. Bastiges.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2021, 11:11:34 PM »
Finally took the time to unbox the generator and run the break-in cycle. A little noisier than anticipated but otherwise about what I expected. Only had it up to a 1500w sustained load but frequency stayed dead on the whole time. Seems to self-regulate just fine. I'll change the oil tomorrow evening to complete the break-in.

The thing sips fuel. After five hours, about half that under a 1500w load, it used roughly 1.5 gallons. I figure 1000w will be about the average sustained load in actual use so the four gallon tank should easily last 8-10 hrs. More if all we're doing is running lights and fridges. That gives a minimum of two full days on 20 gallons of fuel. Using moderate fuel conservation strategies, we could stretch that to three days. Maybe four. Agressive strategies could extend it to almost a full week.

The jerry cans showed no signs of leaks even after a couple months full of StaBil-laced ethanol free fuel. Took almost two months for the flex spouts to arrive but they finally made it, too. I need to number cans so I can track fuel rotation, but otherwise the fuel situation is good.

The electrician ran into work and health hiccups that put him months behind so no inlet port yet. If his schedule holds, he should be here Weds. I've spent the extra time mapping circuits to breakers and updating panel labeling. That needed to happen regardless because nothing was marked.

Brad
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 11:15:20 AM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2021, 11:54:02 AM »
Forgot to update after the electrician was here. My bad.

Had to relocate two breakers but otherwise uneventful. Conductor was hella expensive but we knew it was going to be. All told, about two hours for the install.

The interlock plate dimensions were a little off and interfered with breaker movement. A few seconds with a grinder fixed that. Once installed, slider plate movement was sloppy enough that it could be forced up and over the master breaker. No bueno because that's the safety feature part. No biggie, though. Two flat washers to eliminate the slop and all is well.

Short of a mains-off test to ensure everything works, I should be all set.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

charby

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2022, 01:46:25 PM »
Are you using it?
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2022, 02:11:28 PM »
Nope. Nice, stable power today. Other than a couple of planned runtime sessions it's been sitting in the shop, quietly sipping on the battery maintainer.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2022, 05:45:27 PM »
Second exercise run today. No probs at all. Unhook it from the battery tender, roll outside, turn on fuel, partial choke, and hit the start button. Caught on the first spin. Ran it for an hour with a 1500w load, plus a couple of time with 3000w (finally found my heat gun). Next time I may borrow a couple space heaters and see what happens closer to it's claimed 7000w max sustained load.

Have begun my fuel can rotation, too. Nice to have a station close by which carries ethanol-free fuel. The Wavian flexi spout I got exactly fits the fuel fill door in the truck so it's a no-mess issue to empty the can. A little Sta-Bil and a five minute drive to refill. I even found a rack which perfectly fits a spot directly adjacent the garage door. Now they're inside, off the floor, away from ignition sources, and in a location with sufficient airflow to keep fuel vapors from being an issue.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Ben

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2022, 05:58:52 PM »
Somehow I missed this thread the whole time it has run.  :laugh:

Sounds like you have the setup you want, which is very similar to mine. I did the interlock as well, no permit needed here. My electrician buddy hooked up the interlock and a dedicated plug for my generator at the service box right next to my well house. My setup is that if there's an outage, I hit the interlock, then I manually turn off stuff that the genny can't handle, which for me is the AC/heat pump. It will handle everything else, including the well pump, fine. For the HVAC, it never gets hot enough here that I couldn't live without AC for a while, and for heat, I would just switch to emergency heat and run the propane furnace, which only draws like 1400 watts.

I have an older Champion dual fuel (gasoline/propane) 9KW genset. It does the job, and I test it every month to make sure it starts. It has both electric and backup cord start. But man, it is LOUD. How is your Champion noise-wise Brad?

I've kinda been thinking of getting a second, smaller genny - maybe something like a 3.5kw-ish Honda inverter genset as youtube vids of those show they are quiet. I could use that for longer runtimes for fridges and other stuff, and it would even run the furnace if I watch the other loads, and then if I need big power or else to a couple of times a day fill the well tank, run the bigger one for shorter periods.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2022, 06:41:40 PM »
About the same noise level as a typical push-type lawnmower. The generator section seems to make more noise than the engine but it's high frequency and attentuates quickly with distance. Would be nice if it was as whisper-quiet as the little Honda portables but I guess thats the tradeoff for open-frame simplicity.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Brad Johnson

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2022, 09:41:38 AM »
Quick update because I finally found a user-supplied oscilloscope reading buried in an Amazon review.





Good to see it's the nice, clean power I was hoping for.

Full review. Lots of other good technical info in addition to the o-scope data.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RJYPALJBXSQMH/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B07KQ2P49Y


Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Hawkmoon

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Re: Anyone here who's measured a Generac generator waveform?
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2022, 09:32:30 PM »
Thinking more on this...

Is there any reason I can't simply backfeed the panel through a circuit breaker? By that I mean installing a 14-50 plug somewhere outside that I could plug the generator into, and connecting it to the panel via a simple 50A breaker. If the power fails, I plug the genset into that plug. It would require manually configuring the breakers, sure, but that's as easy as labeling the breakers as "Hey dummy, only these breakers when on gen power!". Simply trip the main panel cutoff, fire up the generator, and re-enable only the breakers feeding designated circuits. It would also allow the use of pretty much any decent genset with 240V capability.

...

*Edit to add* After doing some digging, looks like Square D actually makes an interlock setup just for this purpose. Installs directly in the breaker panel and includes a simple mechanism which effectively blocks the backfeed breaker until the main breaker is in the off position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RG9nfFE7Zw I'll have to check and see what brand our panel is.

There is no reason you can't do what you describe. I've been doing it for years. And there's no need to play with circuit breakers ... just don't turn on the a/c and the electric oven.

As for the interlock -- it's required by the NEC, and there is a company that makes affordable retrofit interlocks for every make and model of panel.
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