Author Topic: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.  (Read 2855 times)

zahc

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2020, 12:30:52 PM »
American companies also will not compete on price. It is not in the DNA.

I buy a lot of low-spec machine tooling. It's universally from the China. I would buy the same low-spec tooling from America, but nobody in America makes it. Because by American standards it's "junk". While for my purposes a $10 collet with 0.001" of run-out is perfectly fine, America only makes $50 collets with 0.0001" of run-out. I would buy the 0.001" collet from America for $20 but nobody makes it.

It's the usual chicken and egg problem. Instead of pointing fingers at "chinese junk" which nevertheless sells, we need to also admit that American manufacturing is not competitive in the low-end sectors, and think about why that is. It's well and good to feel morally superior not to make "inferior" products, but if China is out-competing at the low end it's a matter of time until they are out completing on the high end too. Why CAN'T America make cheap junk tooling better than China? The reasons are complicated, but fundamentally the same reasons America will fail to be competitive everywhere else eventually, so it's important not to just dismiss American failure as sour grapes.

Aloris tool-posts are like $1000. Chinese tool posts are like $200. It's very clear upon inspection that the Chinese tool-post is cheaper not just because of macroeconomic or regulatory advantages, but mostly because an insane amount of corners are cut... corners that cut cost dramatically, while still basically getting the job done. A design which requires less machining, looser tolerances, un-hardened surfaces, random steel composed of whatever they threw in the melting pot. Aloris could cut those same corners and release a COMPETITIVE low-spec tool post. It might be slightly more expensive than the Chinese version, but possibly not. I work in manufacturing, and I have great faith in American manufacturing ability and ingenuity. I honestly think America could do it both better AND cheaper; in other words even $200 is over-charging for what you get with the Chinese tool post. But they refuse to do it. So the Chinese sell 50 cheap tool posts on eBay for every good tool post that Aloris sells. You can be proud of this, but I'm more afraid than proud.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 12:57:38 PM by zahc »
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dogmush

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2020, 12:58:10 PM »
Further Data Points:

I need new cordless tools, so I have been doing some shopping. This is a market where it's really hard to figure out where things are made.

Dewalt has (apparanttly) a line of tools that is "Made in the USA from Global Materials".  Not all of their cordless tools, but a decent selection.  They apparantlly have 7 facilities in the US making cordless tools.  A factory tour clip can be seen here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzxT9pVniPY  It apparanttly varies from final assembly (as is often the case in other "Made in the US" stuff) to winding armatures and building gearboxes in some facilities.

The US range of tools is here: https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/products-made-in-the-usa

It's not a perfect solution, but it's better then assembled in Asia, and it shows that companies might indeed respond to market pressure.

On Amazon, it seems like the tools are pretty similar costs regardless of where they are mde/assembled.


tokugawa

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2020, 05:45:40 PM »
American companies also will not compete on price. It is not in the DNA.

I buy a lot of low-spec machine tooling. It's universally from the China. I would buy the same low-spec tooling from America, but nobody in America makes it. Because by American standards it's "junk". While for my purposes a $10 collet with 0.001" of run-out is perfectly fine, America only makes $50 collets with 0.0001" of run-out. I would buy the 0.001" collet from America for $20 but nobody makes it.

It's the usual chicken and egg problem. Instead of pointing fingers at "chinese junk" which nevertheless sells, we need to also admit that American manufacturing is not competitive in the low-end sectors, and think about why that is. It's well and good to feel morally superior not to make "inferior" products, but if China is out-competing at the low end it's a matter of time until they are out completing on the high end too. Why CAN'T America make cheap junk tooling better than China? The reasons are complicated, but fundamentally the same reasons America will fail to be competitive everywhere else eventually, so it's important not to just dismiss American failure as sour grapes.

Aloris tool-posts are like $1000. Chinese tool posts are like $200. It's very clear upon inspection that the Chinese tool-post is cheaper not just because of macroeconomic or regulatory advantages, but mostly because an insane amount of corners are cut... corners that cut cost dramatically, while still basically getting the job done. A design which requires less machining, looser tolerances, un-hardened surfaces, random steel composed of whatever they threw in the melting pot. Aloris could cut those same corners and release a COMPETITIVE low-spec tool post. It might be slightly more expensive than the Chinese version, but possibly not. I work in manufacturing, and I have great faith in American manufacturing ability and ingenuity. I honestly think America could do it both better AND cheaper; in other words even $200 is over-charging for what you get with the Chinese tool post. But they refuse to do it. So the Chinese sell 50 cheap tool posts on eBay for every good tool post that Aloris sells. You can be proud of this, but I'm more afraid than proud.

 Just for interest I looked around at collets on line.  All ER 25 1/2" .  It would be interesting to see how accurate they actually are. Like you, I seek a middle ground- and the law of diminishing returns applies.
 

 ETM      50.00    USA?
 Hardinge $36.00  USA?
 Maritool    $19.00 Taiwan
 Shark Tools  19.00 Taiwan
 Shars Tegara 16.50 Taiwan
 Grizzly     $9.00   No country of origin but 99.99 sure China.

 


WLJ

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2021, 08:40:52 PM »
Want to buy some a Harbor Freight "Toolmans Kit"?
Any of that stuff look familiar? It's the stuff they give you for free.

https://louisville.craigslist.org/tls/d/louisville-toolmans-kit/7338103089.html
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Nick1911

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2021, 12:01:40 PM »
I don't know what to do with any of it, really.

I buy things directly from china.  Like, the money is directly going to some account that's all spelled with Chinese characters.  In a global economic system that's built in such a way that it's not only slightly, but massively, economically favorable to do so, I'm not going to pay severe premiums to avoid my money going overseas.  Financially penalizing myself won't fix this problem. 

American companies agree, and are more then happy to outsource; then attempting arbitrage between the positions of "We can make it cheap over there" and "We can charge big bucks in the US, we're an American company!" 

One of the things that really annoys me is prominent "Buy local, Support local businesses!" outfits that are actually just selling stuff made overseas.  If you're peddling crap that's from overseas anyway, you're just middle, and I have no reservations about sidestepping your cut and going directly to overseas vendors.

I don't love that China rips off IP.  That's not really cool, but I also have very little respect for the copyright laws of our country, which have been thoroughly corrupted by the corporate influence.  (Thanks Disney!)


zxcvbob

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2021, 02:43:34 PM »
Want to buy some a Harbor Freight "Toolmans Kit"?
Any of that stuff look familiar? It's the stuff they give you for free.

https://louisville.craigslist.org/tls/d/louisville-toolmans-kit/7338103089.html

I'll pass.  But I really *like* that specific set of cheap screwdrivers.  They work great.  I'll buy more anytime I'm at HF and they are on sale for $2.99.  I also have several of that tape measure with no complaints. 

I bought some much fancier and somewhat more expensive screwdrivers there that suck (the flat heads are okay but Phillips are cut too blunt and don't fit anything)
"It's good, though..."

JTHunter

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2021, 05:48:12 PM »
Both my car and my truck have those black & blue oval flashlights in the glove box.  The fact that they have a decent magnet on the back lets me put it under the hood to light the engine compartment or the trunk/tailgate so an oncoming car will see me.  It also has a decent swivel hook for other uses (camping, fishing).
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Bogie

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2021, 10:38:21 PM »
China Fright's stuff has been getting a LOT better since they started executing plant managers whose goods flunked Quality...
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WLJ

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2021, 10:48:59 PM »
China Fright's stuff has been getting a LOT better since they started executing plant managers whose goods flunked Quality...

You mean since they died of COVID right?
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French G.

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2021, 11:12:37 PM »
I am trying to buy as little China as possible. Taiwan is A-ok. I have directly lost out to China because I built things sold to China and then crickets on future sales or spare parts for years. They reverse engineer what should have been millions more in sales. I try hard not to consume from large corps that kiss China’s ass too.  No Nike, no Disney. Two categories I buy zero China are food and gun parts.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: On Harbor Freight, and China in general.
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2021, 12:15:19 AM »
I am trying to buy as little China as possible. Taiwan is A-ok. I have directly lost out to China because I built things sold to China and then crickets on future sales or spare parts for years. They reverse engineer what should have been millions more in sales. I try hard not to consume from large corps that kiss China’s ass too.  No Nike, no Disney. Two categories I buy zero China are food and gun parts.

Sounds like there's a market not so much for just buy american, but instead is simply buy not-china.

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Stuff for sale from anywhere in the world, except the PRC.