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Author Topic: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN  (Read 643 times)

Ben

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DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« on: June 07, 2021, 03:38:21 PM »

Looks like DOJ  just now dropped new stuff on pistol braces. I caught some talk on a youtube news channel. This is the only news story I found so far:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/justice-department-announces-new-steps-to-reduce-gun-violence/ar-AAKNxVv
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dogmush

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2021, 03:49:06 PM »

Here's the notice of proposed rulemaking:

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces


Kinda hard to tell without seeing the actual worksheet they mention, but it seems like maybe the Sig Braces (that go
 round the arm) and the hooky ones might still be OK, while things like the KAK Blade that are more "stockish" could be in trouble.

They don't seem to mention use, only "objective design" so at least you don't have to worry about being an accidental felon if it touches your shoulder in recoil.  I guess we will see....

WLJ

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2021, 04:16:09 PM »

BREAKING: DOJ Announces Proposed Rule to Regulate Braced Pistols as SBRs Under the NFA
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/breaking-doj-announces-proposed-rule-to-regulate-braced-pistols-as-sbrs-under-the-nfa/
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dogmush

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2021, 04:36:02 PM »

I'm on a mobile right now, so I can't post it for you, but if you click on the link in my first reply there is a button in the second section that says "read proposed rule 2021r-08"

Download the pdf and the proposed worksheet is on pages 15 and 16. Pages 31-42 give some examples with pics and filled out worksheets to give you an idea what they're thinking.

It looks like they are going to make it pretty difficult to have a legal braced pistol. 

ETA: also they lay out that there's no tax-free grace period if they just made your pistol an SBR.

Also, I found a direct link to the rule: atf.gov/file/154871/download

MechAg94

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2021, 05:34:07 PM »

Here's the notice of proposed rulemaking:

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/factoring-criteria-firearms-attached-stabilizing-braces


Kinda hard to tell without seeing the actual worksheet they mention, but it seems like maybe the Sig Braces (that go
 round the arm) and the hooky ones might still be OK, while things like the KAK Blade that are more "stockish" could be in trouble.

They don't seem to mention use, only "objective design" so at least you don't have to worry about being an accidental felon if it touches your shoulder in recoil.  I guess we will see....
The only difference between some of the Sig braces and the KAK Blade is the Blade doesn't have a velcro strap.  I will have to skim the proposed rules.

Or they are just targeting one type to get their foot in the door so they can then roll the rest of them in.
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Ben

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2021, 05:45:15 PM »

So according to the worksheet, you get dinged for having iron sights. You also get dinged for having an optic (you just get dinged more - enough to make it an SBR). You also get dinged for having no sights.

They also only seem to mention buffer tube attachment. My Sig Canebrake uses a picatinny attachment. I removed the Sig brace a while back and put an SB 1913 on it. Wondering where that once will fall. The only other AR pistol I have right now is a PWS with an SB brace.
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dogmush

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2021, 07:19:14 PM »

So according to the worksheet, you get dinged for having iron sights. You also get dinged for having an optic (you just get dinged more - enough to make it an SBR). You also get dinged for having no sights.

They also only seem to mention buffer tube attachment. My Sig Canebrake uses a picatinny attachment. I removed the Sig brace a while back and put an SB 1913 on it. Wondering where that once will fall. The only other AR pistol I have right now is a PWS with an SB brace.

You don't get dinged for an optic with unlimited eye relief.   That's the way to go.

I think all the 1913 attaching braces fold, so you would get those 2 points.  At least that's how I read it.

BobR

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2021, 08:48:33 PM »

If any can figure out how to get 3 points or less let me know. I don't think it can be done with any of the popular braces, optics or anything. Which was the plan all along.

bob

dogmush

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2021, 04:15:41 AM »

You will need to have a non adjustable brace, that is on a pistol buffer tube, with a short LOP, no hand stop/hand grip, and an optic with no eye relief constraints.

Ben

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2021, 08:40:30 AM »

You will need to have a non adjustable brace, that is on a pistol buffer tube, with a short LOP, no hand stop/hand grip, and an optic with no eye relief constraints.

From what I heard on mrgunsandgear last night, at least on fin style braces, if the piece of velcro cloth is missing, that's 2 points. Also on split braces, if they are "too small" to fit your arm in, that's a hit. I forget how many points, but a split brace that doesn't fit me might fit someone smaller. Enforcement will be arbitrary.

It's almost like they consulted with Kafka when they made the worksheet.

Anyway, I'm guessing the TF1913  I use on the Canebrake would get me in trouble if the Canebrake doesn't fall into the Snake River.

"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

K Frame

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2021, 08:57:58 AM »

wow... This is going to cause a massive drop in gun crime!

I see upwards 300 violent felonies committed by brace wielding thugs every day!


I have always been very leery of braces. Just way too easy, as we're now seeing, for an unfriendly administration to do this.
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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2021, 09:52:43 AM »

Stupid laws but people pushed the limits to get an almost SBR with no paper. That’s why I got a 16” barrel for my 9mm build. Tired of talking to random range lawyers which I did a lot of when I owned a AR pistol in the days when there were no braces.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Ben

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2021, 10:46:28 AM »

Stupid laws but people pushed the limits to get an almost SBR with no paper. That’s why I got a 16” barrel for my 9mm build. Tired of talking to random range lawyers which I did a lot of when I owned a AR pistol in the days when there were no braces.

I guess the counterpoint would be that you shouldn't need the stamp for an SBR. If anything, using their logic, you would need the stamp for the gun without a brace or stock, which makes the weapon more compact.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MechAg94

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2021, 10:57:49 AM »

Stupid laws but people pushed the limits to get an almost SBR with no paper. That’s why I got a 16” barrel for my 9mm build. Tired of talking to random range lawyers which I did a lot of when I owned a AR pistol in the days when there were no braces.
Might be a product of where you live.  I have never seen or heard anyone ever mention that too me around here.
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Fly320s

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2021, 12:49:33 PM »

I guess the counterpoint would be that you shouldn't need the stamp for an SBR. If anything, using their logic, you would need the stamp for the gun without a brace or stock, which makes the weapon more compact.

A comment from the ATFs site:

Quote
    If braced pistols are SBRs, and braced pistols are in common use, then SBRs are in common use, thus the NFA should be found to be in violation of Heller.


Braced pistols are the definition of common. Sorry ATF.

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MechAg94

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2021, 05:13:29 PM »

I guess the counterpoint would be that you shouldn't need the stamp for an SBR. If anything, using their logic, you would need the stamp for the gun without a brace or stock, which makes the weapon more compact.
The other counterpoint is that the ATF are the ones that said braces were okay use and then they said they were okay to shoulder.  There might have been exceptions to that, but they opened the door and now want to close it again. 

I have a couple guns I will eventually do an SBR for.  In the meantime, we will see. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2021, 06:00:52 PM »

I have a couple guns I will eventually do an SBR for.  In the meantime, we will see.

I was looking at doing at least one SBR before this because frankly, I hate braces. I'm already in the NFA system by choice because of suppressors so they know all about me anyway.  I don't want to do it with a gun to my head though, after becoming a criminal overnight.

Not that I should have to do it at all, but that's another part of the discussion.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Jim147

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2021, 07:00:41 PM »

Where does a 9mm pistol with just a foam covered buffer tube?

I cna't decided between 9 or 45 but want to put one together soon. I have plenty of ammo for both.
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WLJ

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2021, 07:18:34 PM »

Never Underestimate The Power Of The Stupid Side

Jim147

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2021, 07:51:45 PM »

Your eyes show it.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

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MechAg94

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2021, 10:32:16 PM »

I was looking at doing at least one SBR before this because frankly, I hate braces. I'm already in the NFA system by choice because of suppressors so they know all about me anyway.  I don't want to do it with a gun to my head though, after becoming a criminal overnight.

Not that I should have to do it at all, but that's another part of the discussion.
I got a bit lost in Mrgunsngear's video.  It sounded like there were Assault Weapon Ban elements to this crap also.  So if you get an SBR tax stamp, do you still have to worry about points for other parts of the gun? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

dogmush

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2021, 04:06:23 AM »

I got a bit lost in Mrgunsngear's video.  It sounded like there were Assault Weapon Ban elements to this crap also.  So if you get an SBR tax stamp, do you still have to worry about points for other parts of the gun?

No.  If you SBR it, then the points no longer matter.

dogmush

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2021, 04:29:08 AM »

A comment from the ATFs site:

Quote
  If braced pistols are SBRs, and braced pistols are in common use, then SBRs are in common use, thus the NFA should be found to be in violation of Heller.


Braced pistols are the definition of common. Sorry ATF.

I won't hold my breath, but it would be funny if this whole thing leads to a legal challenge on the restriction of SBRs.

As I recall, Miller held that SBS restrictions were OK because short shotguns did not have  "a reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, the Second Amendment does not protect the possession of such an instrument."  Might  be interesting to look at that again in a world where the M4 is what it is.

MechAg94

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 09:45:19 PM »

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: DOJ and Pistol Braces - New as of 07JUN
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2021, 09:45:55 PM »

I heard MidwayUSA was dumping their braces for almost half price.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?searchTerm=pistol+brace

Looks like mostly the ones that would be less compliant. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge
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