Armed Polite Society

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

R.I.P. Scout26

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses  (Read 1276 times)

Fly320s

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,821
  • Formerly, Arthur, King of the Britons
Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« on: June 24, 2021, 06:31:42 AM »

Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,552
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2021, 09:51:03 PM »

On the NBC network news, it was reported the building had a history of sinking about 2 millimeters per year back in the 90's while a study was being done. It is not known if the sinking continued after the study finished.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,397
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2021, 10:08:48 PM »

Looking at image 1 of 19 from that article, you can see some cars on the left rolled up.  Looking closer, there is a big hole under the building on that side.  I think image 4 is a close up of that.  That is all on the other side of the building from the main damage you see. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,290
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2021, 09:35:59 AM »

Possible sinkhole? If a human cause is identified it will likely be years of cursory inspections poorly done and decades of South Florida/ Army corps of engineers mismanagement of aquifers. Waiting for the first politician to say this wouldn’t have happened if Trump and DeSantis had spent money on infrastructure. Because that is coming. Inclusive non binary infrastructure of course.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,350
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2021, 09:45:24 AM »

Possible sinkhole? If a human cause is identified it will likely be years of cursory inspections poorly done and decades of South Florida/ Army corps of engineers mismanagement of aquifers. Waiting for the first politician to say this wouldn’t have happened if Trump and DeSantis had spent money on infrastructure. Because that is coming. Inclusive non binary infrastructure of course.

The cries about it already are going on.

And the 2.3 trillion “spend it on everything except actual infrastructure” infrastructure bill is about to get signed.
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 36,119
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2021, 09:51:56 AM »

While in DC the same day a pedestrian bridge over Interstate I-295 in DC collapsed onto the road. Only a few injured, though.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,995
  • I am not a cat
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2021, 09:55:38 AM »

Obviously the solution is more equity
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
~George Carlin

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,397
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2021, 10:41:46 AM »

Obviously the solution is more equity
Knock down a higher rent building also?  Not sure what would be equitable. 

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,935
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2021, 10:51:49 AM »

What I've read said it was a condominium building with 2 bedroom units going for $600,000 to $700,000.  Really?  High priced apartment building to me.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,114
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2021, 11:07:45 AM »

Pretty cheap for Surfside.

Zillow shoes condos in that town are mostly 750k-1.5M or so

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24,253
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2021, 10:56:06 PM »

Smoking gun.

Conditions deteriorated noticeably just from 2018 to early 2021, increasing the estimated cost of repairs by 50% or more, according to NPR. I ran a repair/restoration project almost exactly like this many years ago but, mercifully, it hadn't gotten as bad; the building wasn't 12 residential stories on top of a parking structure; and we didn't have salt water and ground water intrusion to deal with.

At some point, I think someone is going to asking why Moribita or the city didn't close down the building.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/29/1011280545/letter-from-condo-board-warned-buildings-damage-has-gotten-significantly-worse

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/29/1010976101/timeline-what-we-know-so-far-about-what-led-up-to-the-surfside-condo-collapse

Apparently, the city had the report and, in November of 2018, a building official (who is no longer employed by the city) told the condo association that the building was safe. I doubt that he had any engineering credentials to make such an assessment, and I suspect that statement could very well open the city up to a huge lawsuit.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/29/1011462540/ross-prieto-rosendo-leave-doral-surfside-condo-collapse-inspector

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24,253
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2021, 11:00:07 PM »

On the NBC network news, it was reported the building had a history of sinking about 2 millimeters per year back in the 90's while a study was being done. It is not known if the sinking continued after the study finished.

One of the follow-up articles I recently read said that land subsidence in the entire area has been 1 to 3 mm per year. So it's perhaps not a case of this building sinking into the ground (unlike that high-rise condo in San Francisco), but the entire area where the building rests gradually subsiding. In terms of building safety and structural integrity, that's of far less concern than if THIS building was sinking into the ground.

230RN

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,013
  • Look over the Preamble to the Bill Of Rights
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2021, 12:22:41 PM »

Just got around to watching a video of the actual collapse. Boy, that thing didn't take its time coming down, unless the video was at a low frame rate.

Horrifying thing for the victims, if they even had a chance to wake up as it went down.

So much for the expression "Safe as houses."

JTHunter

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 509
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2021, 02:47:26 PM »

Considering that this condo is located on an island on the east side of Biscayne Bay, possibly of "reclaimed land" (fill), the bedrock under most of Florida is erosion-prone limestone, AND that Florida has had a recurring and ongoing problem with "sinkholes", there are numerous possibilities.
Then there was the inspector that reported signs of low/poor maintenance in the pool mechanical room and water there and the underground garage, subsidence may have been a major factor.
“I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted.  The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37,131
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2021, 09:35:38 AM »

Interesting quote from the below linked article:

Quote
The Champlain Towers condo association manager complained just days before the June 24 collapse that delays by the city of Surfside, Florida's building department were "holding us up" from making needed repairs on the building, emails show, according to a report.

"We need to get to answers to these questions," Scott Stewart, the condo’s building manager, wrote June 21.

Surfside’s building department failed to respond to the condo association’s request to approve a temporary parking plan for construction for more than a month, the emails show, according to the Miami Herald.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/surfside-condo-manager-repair-delays
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24,253
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2021, 05:24:19 PM »

Interesting quote from the below linked article:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/surfside-condo-manager-repair-delays

It wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever if the e-mail had been answered within 5 minutes.

Quote
In an email a week later that went unanswered for a month, Morabito asked the city to make space for construction crews so the repairs could get started.

"It is [Champlain Tower South’s] desire to go out to bid for our 40-year recertification work ASAP and need the Town of Surfside input on this request so everyone has a clear understanding on how this project will be accomplished. As such, we respectfully request that we hear from the Town in the near future so we can make any necessary revisions to our contract drawings and submit same to the Town for permit review/approval," Morabito wrote.

As an architect, I have managed restoration projects on concrete buildings, so I know (generally) what the work entails. In this case, they hadn't even gone out to bid yet. The bidding process alone takes (typically) a month to two months. The construction documents hadn't been submitted for permit yet -- once submitted, for a project of this complexity the review isn't instantaneous. In my state, the building department is allowed thirty days -- by law -- to review construction documents, and many towns and cities have difficulty meeting that statutory deadline.

These are HUGE contracts. Contractors can't develop their bids on the back of an envelope over coffee during a break at the local diner. They put a team of estimators on the bid, they go look at the site, they make their own assessments of how much work is involved, how they will approach it, how many man-hours of labor will be required, what materials and how much will they need, and how long they think the work will take. If there are questions by ANY bidder, the questions and answers are written up and issued as an addendum to ALL bidders, so that all bidders have the same information to work from and there's a level playing field.

If a question from a bidder brings to light some problem with the proposed construction documents -- those get revised and reissued, and that usually results in the bid period being extended.

If, as I expect, the work involved chipping away damaged concrete, repairing or replacing rusted reinforcing steel, and then covering it with new concrete, that's very painstaking work when the beams or columns you're working on are holding up the entire building. The contractor is responsible for the design and erection of temporary shoring, which is needed because they're chopping away the foundations of the structure. It could easily take two weeks to a month for a structural engineer working for the contractor just to design the shoring, and it would probably take another couple of weeks to install it. Only then could the contractor chip out the first loose chunk of concrete from the first beam or column.

Bottom line, this project was NOT ready to go, and the delay in response from the building official, while not good, didn't make any difference. This building was forty years old, and it had apparently been neglected (structurally) for forty years. That's too long. In my [professional] opinion, there was no question that this building was going to collapse. It was a question of when, not if.

Here's one of the structures I managed the repairs on: Xerox Document University.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Conference_Center

It was built in 1974. It was NOT next to the ocean, it did NOT have an underground parking garage beneath the main buildings, it did NOT have a swimming pool leaking into the basement, and we designed major structural repairs to the concrete columns in 1994 - only 20 years after it was built. The actual construction of the repairs took a couple of years -- I don't know how exactly long because I left the firm before that project was completed.

https://xeroxnostalgia.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Leesburg_Trainig_Centre.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_FlqdF_4WRg/UUsWG52lH_I/AAAAAAAAC24/uhn4Tnl92FU/s1600/IMG_3142.JPG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-890Ns5QeSxQ/UUsWJPBChrI/AAAAAAAAC3U/i-jH9RZ7Xnw/s1600/IMG_3146.JPG

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,995
  • I am not a cat
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2021, 02:20:40 PM »

Someone has their tin foil hat on a little too tight

Quote
Now, this brings us to Eric “time for some game theory” Garland, who questioned the decision to implode the building because of the “presence of Israeli Defense Forces” who are aiding in the rescue and recovery efforts:
Quote
Eric Garland
@ericgarland
Given the presence of Israeli Defense Forces in this mess, I have a lot of questions as to why this building was demolished in such a rush.

Eric Garland questions demolition of Surfside condo due to ‘presence of Israeli Defense Forces’
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/07/06/eric-garland-questions-demolition-of-surfside-condo-due-to-presence-of-israeli-defense-forces/
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
~George Carlin

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

BobR

  • Just a pup compared to a few old dogs here!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,118
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2021, 02:26:40 PM »

Someone has their tin foil hat on a little too tight

Eric Garland questions demolition of Surfside condo due to ‘presence of Israeli Defense Forces’
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/07/06/eric-garland-questions-demolition-of-surfside-condo-due-to-presence-of-israeli-defense-forces/

Well, in all actuality if any one knows how to bring down a high rise apartment building it would be the IDF. ;)

bob

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,439
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2021, 02:34:38 PM »

Jet fuel can't melt steel
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,397
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2021, 03:25:15 PM »

Well, in all actuality if any one knows how to bring down a high rise apartment building it would be the IDF. ;)

bob
The news media refused to show the rocket launcher on top of the building.   [tinfoil]
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 04:35:57 PM by MechAg94 »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24,253
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2021, 07:28:13 PM »

Someone has their tin foil hat on a little too tight

Eric Garland questions demolition of Surfside condo due to ‘presence of Israeli Defense Forces’
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/07/06/eric-garland-questions-demolition-of-surfside-condo-due-to-presence-of-israeli-defense-forces/

If he has a point to make, I wish he'd make it.

What was that supposed to imply?

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,995
  • I am not a cat
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2021, 08:34:12 PM »

Quote
At least 64 people have now been confirmed dead and 76 others remain potentially unaccounted for since a 12-story residential building partially collapsed in South Florida's Miami-Dade County last month.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/death-toll-rises-to-64-as-recovery-efforts-continue-in-surfside/ar-AALVjqi?ocid=msedgntp
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
~George Carlin

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,114
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2021, 09:14:27 PM »

The local news stories today were all talking about the folks in charge have officially switched from a rescue op to a recovery op.

They don't think anyone is left alive.  Not surprising, but sad nonetheless.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24,253
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2021, 01:04:42 AM »

The sad thing is that this was probably preventable. I read an interview with a man who used to live in the building, and who now lives in the twin that's three buildings to the north. He said the north building is in much better condition, because the board fixes problems when they see them. It appears more and more (to me, anyway) that the board at the collapsed building only paid attention to superficial issues and weren't concerned with maintaining the structure. Since the collapse of the south twin, the north twin has been checked by a structural engineer and given a clean bill of health.

Having lived in a condominium for several years and having served on the building committee and then the board of directors, I can believe that. When I was involved in the condo, most of the board (and most of the residents) were very stringy about spending any money on actual repairs. They were willing to paint the buildings every few years (or a rotating basis -- it was a large condo), but actually repairing anything under the surface just wasn't on their radar.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,552
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Apartment building near Miami partially collapses
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2021, 05:50:08 PM »

_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.
Pages: [1] 2