Author Topic: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB  (Read 2291 times)

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,199
ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« on: August 23, 2021, 06:14:18 PM »
ShotSpotter is touted as being effective in reducing "gun violence" in marginal neighborhoods. There's just one problem:

It doesn't reduce crime.

https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-algorithm-technology-police-crime-7e3345485aa668c97606d4b54f9b6220

Quote
“ShotSpotter has turned into one of the most important cogs in our wheel of addressing gun violence,” said Toledo, Ohio Police Chief George Kral during a 2019 International Association of Chiefs of Police conference in Chicago.

Researchers who took a look at ShotSpotter’s impacts in communities where it is used came to a different conclusion. One study published in April in the peer-reviewed Journal of Urban Health examined ShotSpotter in 68 large, metropolitan counties from 1999 to 2016, the largest review to date. It found that the technology didn’t reduce gun violence or increase community safety.

“The evidence that we’ve produced suggests that the technology does not reduce firearm violence in the long-term, and the implementation of the technology does not lead to increased murder or weapons related arrests,” said lead author Mitch Doucette.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 07:36:03 PM by Hawkmoon »
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Jim147

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,587
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2021, 06:45:44 PM »
Can't type what I want to so I'll just say dumbasses. Not sure if that will get by the filter.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,849
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2021, 07:34:49 PM »
Yeah, they made a big deal out of installing that here. Hasn't done diddly-squat but they sure are proud of it. Now they've got it in their heads that closing the bars 2 hours earlier is the answer
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,153
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2021, 09:06:53 PM »
Gigglesnort.
 
They put them all over around here, especially for shootin' holidays.
 
Double-gigglesnort.
 
They ain't got enough cops who will run.
 
Well, damn... I can't share the St. Louis Post-Disgrace's murder maps anymore - they want moneyz...
 
I didn't even notice the body 75 yards from my front door until I saw it on the interwebz...
Blog under construction

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,184
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2021, 10:56:10 PM »
All American emergency services over-respond. Well that is until not having cops came in style. If you really want to do bad things you use other people or autonomous guns to overload the system. Same as any other response triggering mayhem in whatever part of the city you are not doing the real bad thing in. Or if it's low key you want I think the system would struggle with subsonic and muffled.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,826
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2021, 11:18:14 PM »
"'ShotSpotter has turned into one of the most important cogs in our wheel of addressing gun violence,' said Toledo, Ohio Police Chief George Kral during a 2019 International Association of Chiefs of Police conference in Chicago."

Well... hell, you know... cops are legally permitted to lie... right?

Side remark into my armpit: "...important cogs in our wheel of addressing...   ? ? ?... Jeeze, Louise, please."
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 11:32:57 PM by 230RN »

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,009
  • I Am Inimical
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2021, 07:44:58 AM »
I thought SplatShatter's primary purpose was to pinpoint where the coroner's van was supposed to make its next pick up?
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

castle key

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 613
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2021, 12:44:46 PM »
While this technology is pretty useless from a crime prevention standpoint, it's amazing in accuracy.

Accuracy depends on proper sensor placement and distance to sensor. My familiarity with the systems is in Washington, DC where there is a large deployment. Areas with well engineered coverage, generally not the best neighborhoods, have given locations to within just a few feet. I've found shell casings using gps coordinates that are EXACTLY where the report stemmed from.

Allegedly the sounds are analyzed to ignore non gunshots, such as the many Independence Day fireworks some cities get.

Not sure if the cost is worth the results...
Vigilate hoc, tenendum per ebrietatem.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,849
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2021, 12:50:08 PM »
I thought SplatShatter's primary purpose was to pinpoint where the coroner's van was supposed to make its next pick up?

Nowadays just send out two guys with a cart yelling "bring out your dead"  every morning
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 05:11:51 PM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,826
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing sinc the AWB
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2021, 01:03:20 PM »
....
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 04:32:37 PM by 230RN »

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,400
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2021, 09:34:55 AM »
I work in Columbus, Ohio.  Columbus PD uses this system.  A cop I know who works in administration told me that they use the system to detect gunfire, with the goal being to get officer responding to the area faster than waiting for a 911 call.  The end goal is to catch the shooters before they have a chance to flee the area.  He will also admit that it's another "feel good P.R." measure, as it rarely does more than tell them the general area where a shot was fired.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

just Warren

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,234
  • My DJ name is Heavy Cream.
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2021, 05:17:40 PM »
From a practical standpoint, ignoring the political aspect, how is this system better than just having cameras everywhere?

Can't the cameras be equipped to record audio?

Maybe run them so that any decibel spike over a certain amount sends a real-time alert to an actual person and then they can see the footage and if it's gunfire they can dispatch the needed responders.

Member in Good Standing of the Spontaneous Order of the Invisible Hand.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,671
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2021, 05:47:08 PM »
From a practical standpoint, ignoring the political aspect, how is this system better than just having cameras everywhere?

Can't the cameras be equipped to record audio?

Maybe run them so that any decibel spike over a certain amount sends a real-time alert to an actual person and then they can see the footage and if it's gunfire they can dispatch the needed responders.

Coverage area per gizmo.  It doesn't take anywhere near as many of the shotspotter mics to cover a large area as it would take cameras.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,964
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2021, 06:03:48 PM »
I recall reading that the British have elaborate CCTV monitor systems in their larger cities.  I wonder if they use ShotSpotter in conjunction with the existing camera system.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2021, 06:04:53 PM »
From a practical standpoint, ignoring the political aspect, how is this system better than just having cameras everywhere?

Can't the cameras be equipped to record audio?

Maybe run them so that any decibel spike over a certain amount sends a real-time alert to an actual person and then they can see the footage and if it's gunfire they can dispatch the needed responders.

As Castle Key pointed out, there is a high resolution geolocation aspect to it.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2021, 07:14:06 PM »
I am curious how well it would work if you used a suppressor rifle with supersonic ammo.  The noise would be from the supersonic crack, not the rifle.  Hard to say.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,745
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2021, 07:17:03 PM »
I am curious how well it would work if you used a suppressor rifle with supersonic ammo.  The noise would be from the supersonic crack, not the rifle.  Hard to say.

That would be interesting (not that I want to see silencers get any more antigun press). From a lot of the "why use silencers?" videos I have watched, the BTDT trigger pullers are more concerned with a silencer's ability to mask sound direction than they are in its actual sound suppression ability.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,849
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2021, 09:32:23 AM »
In the local news this morning
More of what we already know isn't working. It hasn't done diddly-squat in the areas where it's been installed already .

High crime neighborhoods in Louisville need ShotSpotter, councilman says
https://www.wave3.com/2021/08/26/high-crime-neighborhoods-louisville-need-shotspotter-councilman-says/
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

ConstitutionCowboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
  • My Gender and Pronouns are Standard.
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2021, 09:47:50 AM »
All you need is some new thingy (regardless of its efficacy) and the right barker.

I've been thinking of creating the next fad. What do you think about pet wheels?

Woody
   "Knowing the past, I'll not surrender any arms and march less prepared into the future."   B.E.Wood

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,826
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2021, 07:49:06 AM »
I am curious how well it would work if you used a suppressor rifle with supersonic ammo.  The noise would be from the supersonic crack, not the rifle.  Hard to say.

I suspect since they're going after the first noise, the 'first" noise would be the supersonic crack as the bullet exits the suppressor /silencer / muffler.

In other words, at the site of the shooter anyway.

Terry, 230RN

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2021, 09:21:14 AM »
I suspect since they're going after the first noise, the 'first" noise would be the supersonic crack as the bullet exits the suppressor /silencer / muffler.

In other words, at the site of the shooter anyway.

Terry, 230RN
I have just heard that sound propagates differently so I wonder if the location would be spotted in the same way.  Not to mention the decibel level is lower.  The first sound the local sensor sees might be from downrange a bit.  I would bet someone has tested it.  Just curious.

“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,622
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2021, 09:28:04 AM »
In the local news this morning
More of what we already know isn't working. It hasn't done diddly-squat in the areas where it's been installed already .

High crime neighborhoods in Louisville need ShotSpotter, councilman says
https://www.wave3.com/2021/08/26/high-crime-neighborhoods-louisville-need-shotspotter-councilman-says/
It seems to me that it is really just a triage on crime.  Even if you get cops there immediately and catch the shooter 100% of the time, if that is all that happens, what does that do for crime?  Are police running around chasing gun shots instead of patrolling and responding to smaller crimes?  What about stabbings?  Also, will the shooters they catch be prosecuted or plea down to lesser crimes and see little jail time? 

"Crime" is affected by so many more things than just the initial response.  Everyone focuses solely on response time and getting police to the scene.  There is little focus on investigations and prosecution of the criminals. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,881
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2021, 10:21:34 AM »
The need is for DA's who will prosecute to the full extent of the law.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

ConstitutionCowboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
  • My Gender and Pronouns are Standard.
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2021, 10:22:32 AM »
It seems to me that it is really just a triage on crime.  Even if you get cops there immediately and catch the shooter 100% of the time, if that is all that happens, what does that do for crime?  Are police running around chasing gun shots instead of patrolling and responding to smaller crimes?  What about stabbings?  Also, will the shooters they catch be prosecuted or plea down to lesser crimes and see little jail time? 

"Crime" is affected by so many more things than just the initial response.  Everyone focuses solely on response time and getting police to the scene.  There is little focus on investigations and prosecution of the criminals.

That's why non-infringed defense of life, limb, and property is paramount to a free society. How does that saying go? Oh, yeah: "An armed society is a polite society". Polite people neither murder, maim, nor steal.

Woody
   "Knowing the past, I'll not surrender any arms and march less prepared into the future."   B.E.Wood

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: ShotSpotter -- the greatest thing since the AWB
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2021, 12:38:14 PM »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams