Author Topic: No replacement for displacement  (Read 1670 times)

Bogie

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2021, 06:45:17 PM »
Gotta love the "off the shelf" approach... Here's you have VW jugs, but I could also envision Sportster...

https://youtu.be/_bNKq-tQQz0
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230RN

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2021, 09:10:24 PM »
Will he have to put a serial number on it?

charby

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2021, 10:11:05 AM »
I would think anyone going to the trouble of installing this would also put in a supercharger or something similar.

This engine is spec'd (as a crate motor) to have 12:1 compression, going to have to run 91 octane from the pump.

Engines designed to be supercharged are 7:1-9:1 compression, ideally its 8:1 with available pump gas (91 octane).

A supercharger on a 12:1 engine is going to cause a lot detonation with available pump gas, start thinking 100 plus octane or E-85 if you go that route.
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Jim147

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2021, 11:03:19 AM »
You can buy 110 octane down the road from me. I'd hate to look at the cost right now.
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brimic

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2021, 11:39:11 AM »
Meh, you could probably buy a junkyard LS engine, add smaller twin turbos to it, or a well designed turbo, and make the same power in 1/2 the displacement and weight at a fraction of the price.

This engine might have some good marine applications however, running on pump gas means it’ll likely last longer.
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charby

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2021, 12:05:53 PM »
Meh, you could probably buy a junkyard LS engine, add smaller twin turbos to it, or a well designed turbo, and make the same power in 1/2 the displacement and weight at a fraction of the price.

This engine might have some good marine applications however, running on pump gas means it’ll likely last longer.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1807-heres-the-basis-for-building-a-1000-horsepower-ls-engine/
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230RN

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2021, 12:36:47 PM »
I'm sure it's obvious, but what's an "LS" engine?  Searches only reveal repeated use of the acronym without saying what it is.

LS1, LS6.... ?

Pardon my iggerance.

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bedlamite

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2021, 01:09:34 PM »
I'm sure it's obvious, but what's an "LS" engine?  Searches only reveal repeated use of the acronym without saying what it is.

LS1, LS6.... ?

Pardon my iggerance.

Terry, 230RN

New generation Chevy small block starting in the early 2000's
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Brad Johnson

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2021, 01:19:35 PM »
As bedlamite said, LS is GM's current engine series. In Ye Olden Days, GM eventually pared engines down to essentially two basic architectures... small block and big block. Revisions were limited mostly to head design. In the 90's GM recognized that the 50 year old architecture had been pretty much tapped out in terms of potential and were self-limiting in terms of any significant improvements. As a result, they did a clean-sheet engine design. Thus, the LS ... a simple single-cam OHV design with a metric buttload of power potential and few if any of the old engines' inherent limitations.

One of their biggest attractions is a huge aftermarket following and the fact that they make stupid good power without a ton of work. You can yank a garden-variety truck 6.0 out of the junkyard and easily make 500 reliable HP by simply swapping the cam, bolting on a good set of headers, and replacing the fuel injection setup with a carb. Their design also revs to the moon without issue. 6500 rpm is no sweat for a stock rotating assembly and there are plenty of relatively inexpensive crank kits that will stand 8000+ RPM. Since HP is a direct function of RPM, this is a giant "PICK ME!" sign for gearheads. Build something that makes decent torque, spin the crap out of it, and there you go. It doesn't hurt that the LS responds very, very well to forced induction.

However...

As much as I like the power potential of forced induction, pressure equals system complexity and mechanical stress. For a given power level, I much prefer making it with displacement. Lower the stress and you have more headroom in terms of reliability and durability, plus more displacement usually means a much broader (read: much more usable) power band with better low-rpm characteristics. That isn't so much a thing with variable cam timing and electronic controls, but for a simple hot rod application it really does make a difference.

This beast has to be a ground-up new design based on the big block, but with goofy-tall deck heights, significantly elevated cam centerline, and super-thin cylinder liners or some type of expanded bore spacing. There just isn't enough room in a stock block to poke and stroke that far. At 79 cu inches per cylinder, the pistons must be the size of coffee cans.

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« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 05:27:33 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Jim147

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2021, 01:28:18 PM »
And for the LS they were making computer kits back in the late 90's to put them in older cars. A friend had one in his Vega. Even had a knob to change the amount of fuel for when you really wanted to stomp on the loud pedal.
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230RN

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2021, 06:27:25 AM »
^
No wonder you have that "Speedy" nickname.   That video looks like how you drive when you are late for church and your much-needed salvation.

Thanks all for the "LS" explanation.  Technically very interesting for someone who hasn't turned a bolt in thirty years.  But what do the initials "LS" actually stand for?

Brad, your details were fascinating. I have one question, though.

"You can yank a garden-variety truck 6.0 out of the junkyard and easily make 500 reliable HP by simply swapping the cam, bolting on a good set of headers, and replacing the fuel injection setup with a carb."

This seems to be the opposite of what I would expect.  Is it because of some quantity per time limitation of the stock injection setup, versus a carb which could have a much higher "quantity per time" fuel delivery limitation?

If that's it, then my ancient "mechanical" neurons are still working.  (I still remember reading about brush carburetors, where a spinning brush half immersed in fuel would strike a plate, spraying the fuel droplets into the intake air stream.)

Terry

« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 09:04:58 PM by 230RN »

Brad Johnson

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2021, 11:02:15 AM »
^
Brad, your details were fascinating. I have one question, though.

"You can yank a garden-variety truck 6.0 out of the junkyard and easily make 500 reliable HP by simply swapping the cam, bolting on a good set of headers, and replacing the fuel injection setup with a carb."

This seems to be the opposite of what I would expect.  Is it because of some quantity per time limitation of the stock injection setup, versus a carb which could have a much higher "quantity per time" fuel delivery limitation?

Terry


Your intuition is on track, I just left out context. I was speaking from an ease-of-use standpoint. In the scenario described, swapping to a carbureted setup is a matter of expediency and simplicity. In terms of power potential, injection and carburetion will perform similarly. The engine needs X lbs of fuel per HP per hour. It doesn't care how the A/F mix is made, only that the fuel is efficiently atomized, is in the proper ratio, and the mix delivered in sufficient quantity. The injected setup is just more complex and adds complication that probably isn't necessay for weekend hot rod duty. It's also significantly more expensive, though cost and complexity are offset by increased on-the-fly tuneability, efficiency (sometimes), and generally better fueling reliability in weather extremes.

Brad
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 03:46:10 PM by Brad Johnson »
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230RN

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2021, 02:37:32 PM »
Ah.  All is clear now.  Thanks !

Except for what the "L" and the "S" stand for.  ???

Brad Johnson

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2021, 03:44:25 PM »
That's a question for one of our resident Bowtie fans. I'm not familiar enough with GM's engine coding to go beyond L being the general engine family, with the second letter and numeric suffix being a configuration code.

Brad
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230RN

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2021, 06:25:19 PM »
OK, I can live with that --just a mfr's sequence or model code.  Like my flip phone is a WX sumthin sumthin sumthin, and the WX isn't really an acronym for anything.

The trouble is sometimes I go borderline nuts trying to figure out what legitimate arcane acronyms (especially military ones) mean if they aren't on some list somewhere.

But I have to hand it to you for your general knowledge of these things and your patient handling of the explanations.

Many thanks.

Bogie

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2021, 09:51:27 PM »
One of the kids I work with has a mustang with several "adds" or something.
 
He's also cut the cats out, and just put some big wide wheels/street drag tires on the back.
 
And he had problems getting it out of the driveway to come to work today. Duh...
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Brad Johnson

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2021, 12:46:43 AM »
OK, I can live with that --just a mfr's sequence or model code.  Like my flip phone is a WX sumthin sumthin sumthin, and the WX isn't really an acronym for anything.

The trouble is sometimes I go borderline nuts trying to figure out what legitimate arcane acronyms (especially military ones) mean if they aren't on some list somewhere.

But I have to hand it to you for your general knowledge of these things and your patient handling of the explanations.

Many thanks.

No worries, and you're very welcome. I love mechanical things in general and engines of all iterations fascinate me to no end.

You might take a look at the Engine Masters series from MotorTrend TV. It's available on Youtube. They do in-the-trenches testing, including explanations and general discussion geared towards educating the interested. Plus, you get to see some really cool hardware on the dyno.

If you want to make yourself really nuts, look into all the versions, revisions, configurations, and general insanity that is the 351 Ford. Two seperate and distinct engine series with no interchangeability, plus an additional sub-series on one side and evolutionary revisions too numerous to count for all three.

Brad
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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2021, 11:22:15 AM »
My thought, too.   I guess they had to put something up there for the sake of the photography.

Bet the barometer drops 2 inches when you start that thing.  Might even cause a rainstorm. =D


... And create tornadoes aft of the exhaust pipes!  =D

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230RN

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2021, 10:02:01 PM »

... And create tornadoes aft of the exhaust pipes!  =D

Woody

Ancillary, parallel:



Tourist killed from jet blast knocking her against a wall:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jet-blast-sint-maarten-princess-juliana-airport-caribbean-kills-tourist-maho-beach/

JTHunter

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2021, 11:11:49 PM »
Gotta love the "off the shelf" approach... Here's you have VW jugs, but I could also envision Sportster...

https://youtu.be/_bNKq-tQQz0

Hhmm, I wonder - - -.
If that engine were mounted in a small, single-seat airplane, I wonder how fast it could fly?
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230RN

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2021, 02:00:19 PM »
I think it would be called a Gee Bee clone.



https://planesoffame.org/aircraft/plane-R-1



One crashed when a wing fell off:

https://youtu.be/3UmmeWVAt6A

« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 04:48:38 AM by 230RN »

JTHunter

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2021, 02:14:49 PM »
Wasn't the Gee Bee the plane we see at the end of the movie "The Rocketeer"?
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ConstitutionCowboy

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Re: No replacement for displacement
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2021, 04:55:01 PM »
Wasn't the Gee Bee the plane we see at the end of the movie "The Rocketeer"?

And the beginning.

Woody
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