Author Topic: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident  (Read 41018 times)

MillCreek

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #100 on: October 23, 2021, 10:51:46 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/entertainment/brandon-lee-family-speaks-out-halyna-hutchins-death-intl-scli/index.html

I see that in the Brandon Lee incident, a civil suit was settled but no criminal charges were filed.  I wonder if we will see criminal charges there.
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Ron

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #101 on: October 23, 2021, 11:01:57 AM »
Post up and let us know if you were an extra in a movie and were given a gun and told to fire it towards people when action is called, you would trust the prop person and blast away.

I would drop the mag or open the cylinder and check out what was going on with it first, or I would request the prop person demonstrate the gun was safe before I even took it from them.

This was negligent homicide and somebody should be held legally accountable. Fat chance.

 

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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2021, 11:09:43 AM »
Fat chance.

Regarding that, I think there is a good possibility that the weapons guy or other crew might be held liable for negligence if there is evidence of such.

As far as Baldwin, yeah, fat chance. It doesn't matter which side of this you're on. So far, it appears he did what all actors do - took the gun from the prop dept in a manner that can be shown historically to be "standard". So even if he broke the four rules, everyone before him was doing so too, for a very long time. IANAL, but I'm guessing a good attorney will make good use of that fact in any defense.

Again, this is IMO, not based on right or wrong, but on the legal system.
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Jim147

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #103 on: October 23, 2021, 11:18:19 AM »
Well his brother Jane has already spoke up and says he checks any weapon handed to him in front of the propmaster.
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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #104 on: October 23, 2021, 11:19:39 AM »
Well his brother Jane has already spoke up and says he checks any weapon handed to him in front of the propmaster.

Just in case you weren't being sarcastic, they are not related.
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2021, 11:25:05 AM »
Just in case you weren't being sarcastic, they are not related.

Well I'll be.... This whole time I thought they were brothers

From IMDB

Quote
Adam is distantly related to the Baldwin brothers Alec Baldwin, Daniel Baldwin, William Baldwin and Stephen Baldwin, who are from Long Island, New York (Adam is from the Chicago area). They share common Baldwin ancestry going back to the 1600s in England.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2021, 11:37:08 AM »
Allowing LIVE ROUNDS on the set of a movie which includes actors with guns makes about as much sense as allowing cigarettes and matches in a fireworks factory.

If its confirmed that live rounds found their way into a real gun here, SOMEONE needs to go to jail for this.

That in my opinion is basis for a negligent homicide charge on as many people as can be identified as being involved.

Quote
It seems his stunt double was handed a gun with two live rounds in it earlier in the week.

Almost starts to sound like someone was deliberately trying to get someone hurt or killed.
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RocketMan

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2021, 11:49:58 AM »
From reading the articles posted about this incident, "live" rounds has a different meaning in the movie industry.  In this case it means a blank round that will go bang when the gun's trigger is pulled.  There is no projectile other than some sort of wadding in these rounds.
This is opposed to a dummy round that looks real but contains no powder or functional primer and cannot fire.
This was mentioned in several of the articles on this unfortunate incident.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2021, 12:07:24 PM »
Do you think that's how it works on movie sets? I really doubt that even the actors who are knowledgeable about guns do that, that's why they hire experts. If you're insistent that actors strictly follow all gun safety rules, you should probably never watch an old western or John Wick movie or really any movie with guns.

It's not about whatever movies. It is about safe and prudent handling of firearms.

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Ron

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2021, 12:07:46 PM »
I've read that the projectile passed through her and into the director.

Sounds like live actual ammo if that's the case.

Or a blank with a 250gr wad of lead ...
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2021, 12:11:27 PM »
They keep using the term misfire both for this and the earlier 3 "misfires". If the gun fired it's didn't misfire it fired from my understanding of the term misfire.

But
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=misfire+definition&t=ffsb&ia=definition

I suppose #3 could cover what happened if you look at it a certain way  :O

No, with respect to firearms that equates to number 2: the expected result of discharging a firearm is a bullet leaving the muzzle at fairly high velocity. If you push it, even a squib might not qualify as a misfire, since the cartridge did fire.

In the case of Baldwin, it clearly was not a misfire. The gun fired when the trigger was pulled -- exactly as it was designed to do.
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WLJ

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2021, 12:16:09 PM »
I think virtually all of the blame goes to the "armorer". It was her job to ensure the gun was safe and apparently she failed in that task. I believe the co-director was suppose to check as well before handing to the actor so throw him in as well.
But
If the reports of 3 previous issues with guns are true then who hired her and why wasn't she let go after not 1, not 2, but 3 previous "misfires"? Then blame goes to the director and producer (Baldwin) as well IMHO. A little voice in me is saying she was an "equity" hire and it would have caused a stink firing her.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 12:39:09 PM by WLJ »
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Ben

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2021, 12:17:01 PM »
I've read that the projectile passed through her and into the director.

Sounds like live actual ammo if that's the case.

Or a blank with a 250gr wad of lead ...

If not a bullet, then I guess my question is, what kinds of materials are used to top off move blanks? Also, how much powder goes into them? The NYT article alluded to creating "realism" through actual recoil as a reason for using whatever gun that goes bang for real. It doesn't seem like you would need a lot of powder for that. Even my lightest .45acp loads have enough recoil that you can see it if you film someone shooting them.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2021, 12:17:15 PM »
No, with respect to firearms that equates to number 2: the expected result of discharging a firearm is a bullet leaving the muzzle at fairly high velocity. If you push it, even a squib might not qualify as a misfire, since the cartridge did fire.

In the case of Baldwin, it clearly was not a misfire. The gun fired when the trigger was pulled -- exactly as it was designed to do.

That was my point. They're misusing the term misfire
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2021, 12:48:58 PM »
From reading the articles posted about this incident, "live" rounds has a different meaning in the movie industry.  In this case it means a blank round that will go bang when the gun's trigger is pulled.  There is no projectile other than some sort of wadding in these rounds.
This is opposed to a dummy round that looks real but contains no powder or functional primer and cannot fire.
This was mentioned in several of the articles on this unfortunate incident.

I have read as many articles on this as I can find, and I haven't seen that mentioned even once.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2021, 12:52:50 PM »
If not a bullet, then I guess my question is, what kinds of materials are used to top off move blanks? Also, how much powder goes into them? The NYT article alluded to creating "realism" through actual recoil as a reason for using whatever gun that goes bang for real. It doesn't seem like you would need a lot of powder for that. Even my lightest .45acp loads have enough recoil that you can see it if you film someone shooting them.

If they were using 5-in-1 blanks, they are loaded either with a very fast smokeless powder, or with black powder. The cases are typically almost filled with powder. 5-in-1 blanks are typically crimped closed, but there may be a wax plug or a felt wad on top of the powder to prevent leakage through the crimp.

There is nothing in a 5-in-1 blank that would be capable of shooting completely through one person and then penetrating the clavicle of a person standing behind her.
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230RN

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #116 on: October 23, 2021, 02:21:37 PM »
What do you call a “prop gun” that fires real cartridges?

It's called a GUN.

Time to stop using word magic to make it sound less serious.

It's a real gun used as a prop.

Everyone calling it a "prop gun" obscures the reality that it was a functioning firearm.

The use of "prop gun" to the average person makes it sound like a starter pistol or something less serious than the reality.

Even gunnies are falling into the trap.


             

griz

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #117 on: October 23, 2021, 02:37:28 PM »
Any random actor can't be expected to be knowledgeable enough to assure a gun is incapable of causing injury.  It's just not why they hire them, even if us gun people think the four rules should be written into the federal code.  So the responsibility must fall to the person/s who run the show.  I don't know if this is person is the director, producer, or some other title, but it's the same person who would be held responsible if, for instance, they hired an unlicensed cousin to fly a helicopter that crashed into the set.  If they hired a competent armorer, had a reasonable plan to eliminate mistakes, but the armorer made a one time mistake and mixed up a live round in with the blanks, the negligence is on him/her.  But it sounds as if they went low budget and hired somebody who was grossly lacking in some way.  Combine that with the previous negligent discharges (I too don't agree with the term misfire) and it seems criminal that they continued using that person.

All that said, my guess is they will consider it an embarrassing mistake of the people making the movie and call it a workplace accident.  No charges, but they will have to pay millions in the inevitable lawsuits.

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just Warren

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #118 on: October 23, 2021, 02:52:49 PM »
Sure they'll payout, those kids will be taken care of and the legal process will do what it do but the question is: Will the lesson carry forward? Will enough people gain enough wisdom from this incident to make sure it doesn't happen again?
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BobR

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #119 on: October 23, 2021, 03:01:57 PM »
Sure they'll payout, those kids will be taken care of and the legal process will do what it do but the question is: Will the lesson carry forward? Will enough people gain enough wisdom from this incident to make sure it doesn't happen again?

Probably not. I am sure they thought they had all the protocols in place to prevent it after Brandon Lee. Give it time, unless they pull all guns capable of firing blanks from production sets and go with plastic/rubber guns it will happen again. :(

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2021, 03:12:20 PM »
I despise Alec Baldwin. I would gleefully crap on his grave.
That being said I don't put a lot of fault for the actual act on his head. However, If he had anything to do with hiring and then retaining the obviously incompetent armorer then he gets a fair share of the blame.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2021, 04:04:50 PM »
One thing that I noticed was how quickly the union that had pulled its people off the production earlier started insinuating that the accident would not have happened if union labor had still been on the job.  Their claim was that union labor is more competent and works safely. The smoke had hardly had time to clear before they released a statement to that effect.
Food for thought.
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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2021, 04:31:37 PM »
Speculation now that one of the disgruntled workers may have tampered with the gun and/or ammo. If true that would go a long way in explaining how live rounds got anywhere near the set. Just speculation as far as I know at this point. Still wouldn't get the armorer and/or others in the inspection chain completely off the hook though.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2021, 04:52:20 PM »
I despise Alec Baldwin. I would gleefully crap on his grave.
That being said I don't put a lot of fault for the actual act on his head. However, If he had anything to do with hiring and then retaining the obviously incompetent armorer then he gets a fair share of the blame.

This.

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Re: Alec Baldwin Firearm Accident
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2021, 04:56:21 PM »
I despise Alec Baldwin. I would gleefully crap on his grave.
That being said I don't put a lot of fault for the actual act on his head. However, If he had anything to do with hiring and then retaining the obviously incompetent armorer then he gets a fair share of the blame.

As an actor, he doesn't deserve a lot of the blame (unless he personally tampered with the gun or ammo, which is unlikely.)  As a producer, it is very much his fault.
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