Author Topic: Testing Frozen Rifles  (Read 983 times)

Ben

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Testing Frozen Rifles
« on: January 10, 2022, 05:02:28 PM »
Garand Thumb did an unscientific test on the functionality of frozen rifles. I stress unscientific because it seemed to me that the way he froze the rifles, coupled with various rifle designs (indents, etc. on receivers) as well as how the rifles were placed for freezing might have affected how different parts of each rifle froze. Then again, if you were to leave your rifle lying out in the snow, it's probably somewhat haphazardly and randomly laying in the snow.

He did three stages. Firing all the rifles at I think 25deg, then splashing water on all of them and letting that freeze and firing again, then dousing the rifles with water, letting them freeze, and testing again. In the end, the AKs and FALs apparently came out the winners. The Galil did okay as well. It was kind of educational to see just what was freezing up on each rifle to prevent them from functioning. By the third test, on almost everything without a big ass AK style safety, the first thing out the gate was trying to even get the safety from safe to fire.

You can probably skip the first ten minutes. Firing the rifles dry in 25deg, all but one - a milspec AR build - functioned flawlessly. He specifically said that the failed AR was one that he had purposely let go for a long while with no cleaning, so maybe some gunk hardened up.

https://youtu.be/LbjpIP5ShH0
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Fly320s

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2022, 05:11:05 PM »
What I learned: don't let wet rifles freeze.  Take care of your gear.  And even Daddy Garand doesn't know much about guns.
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MechAg94

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2022, 05:17:46 PM »
I saw that the other day.  The AK Guy was bragging about it a little.  I saw another one just say it wasn't a realistic military cold weather test.  Personally, I think Garand Thumb was just messing around with something different.  And I guess if you are out in rain/sleet.  You might want to keep your rifle covered. 

I am down here on the Texas Gulf Coast thinking it isn't something I will have to deal with, but I am glad I have a variety of rifles.  I may want to upgrade my AK's with the Krebs enhanced safety that has the extra tab to get hold of the safety as well as a safety notch. 
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Devonai

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2022, 07:35:37 PM »
Despite the fact that I was in a mountaineering unit for 6 years and dragged an M16A2 through sub-zero temps and snow up to my balls, I never had to fire it in those conditions. However, prior to that, before the Army sucked all the fun out of pretending I was in the Ardennes, I spent an insane amount of time firing my own rifles in the artic tundra of northern New Hampshire.

M1 Garand: no problems, probably due to the white lithium grease used on the receiver rails/op rod.

Yugoslavian M48 Mauser & a Mosin-Nagant (can't remember the manufacturer): the actions froze up and were very difficult to cycle. I don't envy the soldiers who had to bet their lives on them.

Standard Products M1 Carbine: the right side locking lug of the bolt sheared off during firing and I'm lucky I didn't get my face blown off.
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Ben

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2022, 07:52:34 PM »
the right side locking lug of the bolt sheared off during firing and I'm lucky I didn't get my face blown off.

A good portion of the malfunctions Garand Thumb had in the most severe test seemed to scare him.
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dogmush

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2022, 06:21:55 AM »
I didn't watch the video, but the M16/M4 TM says to change lubes to Lubricant, Arctic Weapon once it's below feezing.

Did the Thumb do that?

WLJ

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2022, 07:23:30 AM »
Mechanical devices can freeze up if you pour water on them in below freezing conditions and then allow them to sit. Who would have thunk?
Unscientific test is unscientific.

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WLJ

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2022, 07:40:14 AM »
I saw that the other day.  The AK Guy was bragging about it a little.  I saw another one just say it wasn't a realistic military cold weather test.  Personally, I think Garand Thumb was just messing around with something different.  And I guess if you are out in rain/sleet.  You might want to keep your rifle covered. 

I am down here on the Texas Gulf Coast thinking it isn't something I will have to deal with, but I am glad I have a variety of rifles.  I may want to upgrade my AK's with the Krebs enhanced safety that has the extra tab to get hold of the safety as well as a safety notch.

ARs tend to do better than AKs in the mud tests I've seen so it's a case of pick the test conditions that makes your rifle look good in many "my rifle is better than your rifle" arguments. Many revered older rifles (Mosins, M1 Garand, M1C, M14) have done shockingly bad in many of these "tests".
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 07:57:24 AM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2022, 07:52:26 AM »
Lesson?
Maintain your rifle for the conditions you're in
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 08:12:42 AM by WLJ »
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MechAg94

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2022, 09:56:17 AM »
I didn't watch the video, but the M16/M4 TM says to change lubes to Lubricant, Arctic Weapon once it's below feezing.

Did the Thumb do that?
I thought he said he did change the lubricant to something compatible or went dry.  Except for maybe that one. 
He talked a bunch at the beginning and I didn't listen to it all.
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MechAg94

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2022, 10:07:05 AM »
ARs tend to do better than AKs in the mud tests I've seen so it's a case of pick the test conditions that makes your rifle look good in many "my rifle is better than your rifle" arguments. Many revered older rifles (Mosins, M1 Garand, M1C, M14) have done shockingly bad in many of these "tests".
I agree with that.  And don't throw your rifle down in the mud.  For InrangeTV, don't throw your rifle down in the mud that is full of small pebbles.   

A lot of those older rifles were not near as reliable as modern rifles.  They were good in their day, but firearms design has come a long way. 
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Pb

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2022, 11:38:09 AM »
Police in Alaska did cold weather rifle tests in 1984.

Two AK derivatives (Galil and FNC) were the only ones to pass:

https://vdocuments.net/swat-extreme-cold-weather-test-55844915ed12b.html

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2022, 12:12:22 PM »
Devonai remarked,

"Standard Products M1 Carbine: the right side locking lug of the bolt sheared off during firing and I'm lucky I didn't get my face blown off."

A large problem with cold weather operation of any equipment is metal embrittlement, regardless of moisture.  Sort of like having your stuff made out of glass.

WLJ

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2022, 12:22:58 PM »
Remember something somewhere about some M1 Carbine bolts having hardening issues. Extreme cold may bring that out.
Sorry can't at the moment remember the details of who what when.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 12:39:45 PM by WLJ »
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MechAg94

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 12:32:24 PM »
Police in Alaska did cold weather rifle tests in 1984.

Two AK derivatives (Galil and FNC) were the only ones to pass:

https://vdocuments.net/swat-extreme-cold-weather-test-55844915ed12b.html
Thanks for posting that.  That test was actually very similar to Garand Thumbs test though much colder.
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Ben

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2022, 01:13:30 PM »
On a tangent, I was at the gun club this morning. While there's hardly any snow left by me right now, seven miles away as the crow flies, the club was full of snow and ice. I spent an hour sighting in a new optic and playing with the 1301, then packed up and went to police my brass. That stuff was all frozen into the snow.  =D

It was 28deg while I was there, but I guess still cold enough to quickly refreeze things after the hot brass hit the snow. Also at below freezing it still takes forever for a silencer to cool down.  =)
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Fly320s

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2022, 02:37:37 PM »
Stick the silencer into the snow.   :police:
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WLJ

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2022, 02:46:17 PM »
I agree with that.  And don't throw your rifle down in the mud.  For InrangeTV, don't throw your rifle down in the mud that is full of small pebbles.   

A lot of those older rifles were not near as reliable as modern rifles.  They were good in their day, but firearms design has come a long way.

Speaking of InRangeTV and frozen guns

Karl at Finnish Brutality 2021 had his Glock freeze up.
It's in one of InRange's Finnish Brutality 2021 videos
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MechAg94

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2022, 03:05:13 PM »
Speaking of InRangeTV and frozen guns

Karl at Finnish Brutality 2021 had his Glock freeze up.
It's in one of InRange's Finnish Brutality 2021 videos
And I think it was similar to this.  Moisture got into the trigger mechanism and froze it up. 


I was thinking about my Robinson Armament XCR.  The long stroke piston system should work okay, but I was thinking the trigger/safety are similar to an AR. 
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Ben

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2022, 04:28:39 PM »
And I think it was similar to this.  Moisture got into the trigger mechanism and froze it up. 


I was thinking about my Robinson Armament XCR.  The long stroke piston system should work okay, but I was thinking the trigger/safety are similar to an AR.

Yeah, I was thinking that while my PWS uppers are AK-like, the lowers are where all the malfunctions seemed to be. IIRC, one of GT's rifles malfunctioned on the second shot because a magazine follower froze.
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dogmush

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Re: Testing Frozen Rifles
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2022, 04:42:40 PM »
RTFM

Quote from: TM 9-1005-319-10 Operators Manual for CARBINE, 5.56 MM, M4 W/E
OPERATIONS UNDER UNUSUAL CONDITIONS   

EXTREME COLD CLIMATE - ARCTIC
1. To operate the weapon in extreme cold, depress the trigger guard plunger
and open the trigger guard to obtain easy access to the trigger when wearing
Arctic mittens

                                           NOTE
Under extreme cold conditions, a small amount of CLP on moving parts
can prevent weapon from firing. Ensure CLP is thoroughly removed from
weapon and LAW applied prior to extreme cold operations.

2. Cleaning and lubrication should be accomplished inside a warm, room and
the weapon should be at room temperature if possible.

a. Apply a light coat of LAW to all functional parts.

b. To prevent the condensation of moisture and freezing, keep the weapon
covered when moving from a warm to a cold area to allow gradual
cooling.

c. Always attempt to keep the weapon dry.

d. Unload and hand function the weapon every 30 minutes to help prevent
freezing of functional parts.

e. Do not lay a warm weapon directly in snow or ice.

f. When moving a cold weapon into a warm place, condensation (moisture)
will form in and on your weapon. If possible, leave your weapon in a
protected but cold area outside. When the weapon is brought inside a
warm place, it should be disassembled and wiped dry several times as it
reaches room temperature.

g. Keep the insides of magazines and your ammo wiped dry. Moisture will
freeze and cause malfunctions. Do not lube the ammo.

h. The use of the muzzle cap, protective magazine bag, and an overall
weapon cover will help protect your weapon. Use them whenever the
tactical situation permits.

i. For extended operations in extreme cold, have armor remove trigger
guard.

Note especially Paras 2d, 2f and 2g.  Obviously you can't always, and no weapons system is perfect, much less the AR platform, but most of what is described can be mitigated by reading the instructions.

http://southtexasshooting.org/m16a2_army_tm_9_1005_319_10.pdf