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Author Topic: Ford Tri-motor foreplay  (Read 407 times)

230RN

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Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« on: January 11, 2022, 09:58:50 AM »

Ford Tri-motor foreplay

Getting a Ford trimotor ready to fly; kind of interesting but long (23:44).

https://youtu.be/MO-UOjoa-ZY

I was surprised to find they used a long specialized stick to manually turn over the middle engine. (3:00ff)

Apparently, the Ford has a tendency to "adverse yaw," where turning the wheel to the right results in a momentary swing to the left before it corrects itself.  I can't figure that one out, aerodynamically.  Unless it had something to do with the control cables being outside the fuselage.  (? ? ?)

I thought there was definitely something goofy with that starboard engine (#3?). I read where Bob Cummings of the TV series ferried a trimotor with only the center engine quite a ways, but not sure where I read that or where the origin and destination were.

The Richard Bach they refer to was an aviation author who wrote the best seller Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

So work your way through it or not, I found the video interesting, especially where you could hear the impulse magnetos when he shut down the port engine. (18:30ff)

Terry, groundlubber, 230RN

LATE CORRECTION: Richard Bach is still alive at 86yo,so the "was" above should be an "is."
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 10:07:44 AM by 230RN »

Fly320s

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2022, 12:58:45 PM »

Adverse yaw:  When turning the wheel/stick one direction, say to the right, that aileron goes up and helps push that right wing down.  The opposite aileron goes down which helps to lift that left wing.  The down aileron creates more drag than the up aileron which pulls the nose of the plane to the left.

The down aileron sticks out into the wind creating parasite drag, as does the up aileron, but the down aileron is also creating lift which creates its own induced drag.  So, the down aileron creates parasite and induced drag while the up aileron creates only parasite drag.

As long as the ailerons are sticking up/down in the wind they are creating drag and causing the adverse yaw.  The ailerons are only used to roll the plane into a bank, not to hold the bank.  Once we roll into the desired bank angle, the ailerons get turned back to neutral, which is why the adverse yaw shows up at the start and end of a turn: the ailerons are creating drag when we roll into or out of a bank.
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BobR

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2022, 01:18:34 PM »

^^^^^

Don't quite a few planes now days have an aileron rudder interconnect in order to reduce the yaw from aileron deflection, especially at lower airspeeds such as landing speeds? I know we had the feature in the P3.

bob

Fly320s

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2022, 02:35:42 PM »

^^^^^

Don't quite a few planes now days have an aileron rudder interconnect in order to reduce the yaw from aileron deflection, especially at lower airspeeds such as landing speeds? I know we had the feature in the P3.

bob

Very few general aviation planes have that.  The ERCO Ercoupe is the only one that I can think of right now.

Then there is Airbus.  All of the fly-by-wire Airbus have automated turn coordination.  I only use the rudder pedals for taxi, takeoff, and landing.  Boeing might have something similar, I don't know.
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230RN

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2022, 05:43:59 PM »

THANK YOU BOTH !
That really puzzled me--great explanations !

JTHunter

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2022, 12:35:33 AM »

Cool video Terry.  Thanks!
IIRC, weren't the TriMotors the first "commercial" airliners?
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230RN

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2022, 12:51:52 AM »

^  Yes, they've long been credited with "establishing" the commercial personal transport industry.  It wasn't long before other builders started to design for that purpose, notably the Douglas DC series"

"The Douglas DC-1 was the first model of the famous American DC (Douglas Commercial) commercial transport aircraft series. Although only one example of the DC-1 was produced, the design was the basis for the DC-2 and DC-3, the latter of which being one of the most successful aircraft in the history of aviation."

"The early 1930s saw a complete transformation of commercial air transport with the introduction of the Boeing Model 247. At last, the majestic but lumbering Curtiss T-32 Condor biplane, the Fokker F VII and Ford tri-motors were giving way to the sleek, all-metal airliners. But something even greater would follow—it was the Douglas DC-3. Hardly had the Model 247 gotten off the ground, when it was eclipsed by the Douglas airliner. And who would have thought that DC-3 would still be in service more than 80 years after it was first introduced, while the Model 247 is only a distant memory."
http://www.aviation-history.com/douglas/dc3.html

Some DC-3s have been converted to turbine engines, so they might still be around for some time.

I guess Airbus is in the lead in terms of aircraft production nowadays.

Terry, 230RN

« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 01:44:45 AM by 230RN »

K Frame

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2022, 07:07:32 AM »

I still see the occasional DC-3 flying out of some of the smaller strips in the DC metro area. They're still used by a number of niche cargo companies. Estimates are that there are a couple hundred still flying around the world.
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230RN

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2022, 07:27:21 AM »

After the War surplus DC-3s were so inexpensive that prominent people were giving them away to other prominent people as gifts.

I'm willing to be challenged on this, but I think Arthur Godfrey's and Senator Goldwater's DC-3s came to them that way.

K Frame

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2022, 07:29:45 AM »

Here's something I didn't know...

Civilian production of DC 3s was only a few over 600.

Military production? Nearly 16,000.
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230RN

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2022, 07:35:27 AM »

^  Shoot, yes.  Just everybody knew how to fly one !

   

:rofl:

Incidentally, that kind of formation overhead when I was a little kid scared the hell out of me with all those engines roaring and they were pretty close to the ground. There were half a million airfields around Brooklyn and Long Island and when they were about to ferry them to someplace in Canada, they formed up overhead.  Nobody knew of it at the time, but they were probably flown by women of the WASP service.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 07:56:33 AM by 230RN »

grampster

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2022, 07:49:15 AM »

When young, I used to love to go to the local airport and watch the DC3's landing and taking off.  Then came the DC4's.  We could sit on the shoulder of the road at the end of the runway.  Those planes taking off were not very high off the ground when they crossed the road.  If you happened to be driving that road and not thinking about the airport and one of those took off, it was quite a unnerving experience.
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230RN

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2022, 08:10:00 AM »

One of the old Stapleton Airport runways ran over either I-70 or I-25, I forget which, and we got pretty startled when we saw a jet coming at "us" and zooming off skyward just before we passed under it. We realized what was going on pretty quick, but it was a definite WTF moment. I guess there are a couple of places where runways and highways intersect.  Gibraltar Airport is one where they have to stop traffic to let planes land and take off.

I bet nobody slips red lights there, right?  And definitely no right turns on red !

WLJ

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2022, 08:17:02 AM »

Don't see then so often around here anymore but I remember watching the jets come and go out of the main airport and then here comes a DC-3.
Is it moving?
Come on don't have all day!
Going to go get something to eat, it'll still be hanging there when I get back.
Oh look I think it moved.
Any slower and you would be a champagne colored Buick

God I love those planes
 
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K Frame

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2022, 08:56:48 AM »

"One of the old Stapleton Airport runways ran over either I-70 or I-25, I forget which, and we got pretty startled when we saw a jet coming at "us" and zooming off skyward just before we passed under it."

Pretty sure it was I 70.

I flew out of Stapleton back in 1992 when I went to Raton for NRA business.

I had a fairly early morning flight. When I got to Denver on I 70 I saw a jet landing and just about crapped my pants.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Ford Tri-motor foreplay
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2022, 02:37:34 PM »

Very few general aviation planes have that.  The ERCO Ercoupe is the only one that I can think of right now.

Then there is Airbus.  All of the fly-by-wire Airbus have automated turn coordination.  I only use the rudder pedals for taxi, takeoff, and landing.  Boeing might have something similar, I don't know.



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