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Author Topic: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate  (Read 535 times)

Brad Johnson

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SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« on: January 13, 2022, 02:40:37 PM »

SCOTUS split decision on vaccine requirements.

1) OSHA mandate killed
2) HHS health care requirements allowed to proceed

https://www.kcbd.com/2022/01/13/supreme-court-halts-covid-19-vaccine-rule-us-businesses/?fbclid=IwAR3gPzl5Oi42O_ItBcaUyF_V5M8e9Bc49f9vZZcDi6O2CpcrGH7_POYixzs

I don't see allowing the health care requirements to do anything except make the existing healthcare personnel crisis worse. Much worse. Allow a bunch of health care workers to be fired for not getting jabbed, then get pissy about not having enough health care workers. Yeah, that'll certainly not result in a further shortage of workers and a bunch of bent feelings. That being said, it's essentially recognition of HHS's ability to self-regulate within it's chartered limits and reasonable spheres of autonomy. I can respect that even if I don't care for the way it's been handled.

Brad
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:57:58 PM by Brad Johnson »
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Jim147

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2022, 02:57:59 PM »

If you're a vaccinated nurse with covid you can come into work but if you're unvaccinated without the virus you don't have a job.

It's SiEncY or something.
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PEfarmer

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2022, 04:44:34 PM »

Another consequence of federal intervention into medicine.  Since every (?) (not really every, but most, especially hospitals) take M/M, they will sing to the king's tune.  I do wonder if, in the unlikely event, that some medical facilities really didn't want to go along with the jab mandate, they may use this opportunity to make a clear break from the .gov tittie.  Doubtful.

Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2022, 05:09:30 PM »

This was widely expected, yes?

I guess this means Jefferson Davis and the rest of the deplorables have taken over the Court. I bet they filibustered and everything.
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MillCreek

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2022, 09:06:31 PM »

So people have rights unless you work in healthcare. Got it.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2022, 09:18:07 PM »

So people have rights unless you work in healthcare. Got it.

That immediately reminds me of people who say that if you've chosen the wedding business (or any other business), you're open to the public and must bake the cake.
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Andiron

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2022, 10:21:38 PM »

My friend the ICU nurse is now officially out of a job.  What horse *expletive deleted*it.

When the Cleveland Clinic whines about being understaffed, you can point at this and laugh.  *expletive deleted*ck HHS.
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Lennyjoe

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2022, 08:15:59 AM »

Wondering if any can sue their employer for wrongful termination…

MechAg94

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2022, 09:37:05 AM »

Wondering if any can sue their employer for wrongful termination…
There have been a lot of lawsuits of one kind or another over vaccine mandates.  Most of them have been denied or dismissed.
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Lennyjoe

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2022, 11:30:04 AM »

There have been a lot of lawsuits of one kind or another over vaccine mandates.  Most of them have been denied or dismissed.

Does the SCOTUS ruling change that dismissal argument now?

Ron

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2022, 11:37:59 AM »

Do corporations open themselves up to liability demanding employees subject themselves to an experimental treatment, now that they don't have cover of law?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 11:51:24 AM by Ron »
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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2022, 03:22:09 PM »

Good.  Now, declare OSHA unconstitional.

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2022, 03:34:25 PM »

Do corporations open themselves up to liability demanding employees subject themselves to an experimental treatment, now that they don't have cover of law?

IANAL but probably not,  the FDA approval will go a long way towards mitigating that.  FWIW the actual directive the DOD gave me said "get vaccinated with the FDA approved vaccine".  That was the mandate.  Farther down it said "if you choose to get a vaccine that has an EUA, it will fulfill this requirement. " (bolding mine)

The mandate proponents have lawyers as well, and use them.

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2022, 08:33:21 PM »



too soon?
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

MechAg94

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2022, 03:58:18 PM »

IANAL but probably not,  the FDA approval will go a long way towards mitigating that.  FWIW the actual directive the DOD gave me said "get vaccinated with the FDA approved vaccine".  That was the mandate.  Farther down it said "if you choose to get a vaccine that has an EUA, it will fulfill this requirement. " (bolding mine)

The mandate proponents have lawyers as well, and use them.
I saw an interview or video (can't remember which) of a woman who said she asked about getting the FDA approved vaccine.  Whoever was giving it came out with a vaccine, but not the FDA approved vaccine (they didn't have it).  She then asked for the paper work for the vaccine and they didn't have that either. 

I haven't come across anyone who said they had gotten the FDA approved vaccine.
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dogmush

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2022, 06:32:06 PM »

Mrs Mush got Comirnaty for her booster.  It can be found if one really wants it.

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2022, 01:09:20 AM »

 afaik, the vaxx mandate only applies to health care professionals that receive fed funds, like medicaid and the like
  Are the patients that get medicaid also expected to get the jab?
if you're in a private, really private hospital - can it refuse medicaid patients so as to spare employees that refuse jabs?
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dogmush

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2022, 06:13:38 AM »

Yes you theoretically  could.  My understanding  is that medicare/Medicaid  is such a big part of the healthcare payment structure that a hospital would be unlikely to survive without it though,

Smaller providers can and do refuse to take M/M. One of my coworkers wife is a nurse in Pasco county FL, and she works In a smaller two doctor office.  They are not mandating the vaccine, and dropped the M/M patients they had over it.

I don't know how it would work with something  like an ER that is required to give stabilizing care to anyone that comes in. If a Medicaid patient gets dropped off and they have to fix them, does that suck them into the mandate  thing if they were otherwise  M/M free?

MillCreek

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2022, 09:15:47 AM »

As Dogmush points out, I don't know of any hospital or nursing home that does not take Federal dollars from Medicare and Medicaid.  It is interesting to contemplate if a hospital or nursing home could escape the Federal mandate by choosing not to bill or to accept payment for patients on Medicare or Medicaid.  But then again, there are Federal requirements to bill for such patients.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2022, 09:41:10 AM »

As Dogmush points out, I don't know of any hospital or nursing home that does not take Federal dollars from Medicare and Medicaid.  It is interesting to contemplate if a hospital or nursing home could escape the Federal mandate by choosing not to bill or to accept payment for patients on Medicare or Medicaid.  But then again, there are Federal requirements to bill for such patients.

With so many health care workers getting fired over the vax business, and so many people opposed to the mandates, it makes me wonder if there's an opening for a no-mandate hospital to open somewhere in a red state. But I guess Americans would have to get a whole lot more serious about setting up our own, parallel institutions.
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MillCreek

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2022, 10:22:29 AM »

^^^I think the sticky wicket for such a hospital would be financial survival.  When you look at hospitals as a whole across the country, about a third of revenue is accounted for by Medicare (22%) and Medicaid (11%), with the other two thirds coming from healthcare insurance (Regence, the Blues, Humana, etc.), private pay and uncompensated care.  The exact percentage of revenue varies a lot and the percentage of revenue from Medicare and Medicaid goes up a lot more for rural hospitals and urban hospitals that tend to serve poorer and uninsured populations.  Experience has shown that a specialty hospital in certain specialties in certain areas can survive with healthcare insurance and private pay only.  These include private psychiatric hospitals catering to the rich, specialty eye and orthopedic hospitals, and private cancer centers.  So if you open a psychiatric hospital in upstate New York catering to the elite, you can make it.  A full-service hospital in Wyoming or Mississippi, not so much. 
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Hawkmoon

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2022, 12:56:18 AM »

With so many health care workers getting fired over the vax business, and so many people opposed to the mandates, it makes me wonder if there's an opening for a no-mandate hospital to open somewhere in a red state. But I guess Americans would have to get a whole lot more serious about setting up our own, parallel institutions.

Opening a hospital isn't as easy as opening a car wash. Hospitals have to be licensed by the state, and the states impose limitations on the number(s) of beds. To open a new hospital (or to add beds to an existing hospital) is an extremely lengthy process involving lots of negotiating about showing data to justify a certificate of need.

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2022, 07:53:02 AM »

As Dogmush points out, I don't know of any hospital or nursing home that does not take Federal dollars from Medicare and Medicaid.  It is interesting to contemplate if a hospital or nursing home could escape the Federal mandate by choosing not to bill or to accept payment for patients on Medicare or Medicaid.  But then again, there are Federal requirements to bill for such patients.

Let’s also not forget that the big hospital systems seem to be quite enthusiastic about mandating the vaccines for their employees so they have no interest in standing against it.
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dogmush

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2022, 09:30:09 AM »

Let’s also not forget that the big hospital systems seem to be quite enthusiastic about mandating the vaccines for their employees so they have no interest in standing against it.

I'm not sure that's  as universal  as you think.

I know I argued earlier that it would be a small percentage  of staff that actually quit or got fired over this, but time has proven me incorrect. It seems like there's a low double digit percentage  of actual medical staff, and a higher percentage of support staff in hospitals that the vaccine is the red line, so to speak.

I know the large hospital that Mrs. Mush works at had said all summer they weren't going to mandate a vaccine, then when Biden hit them with the mandate they put it off as long as possible,  and paused it within hours of the original stay being issued.  She hasn't been at work since the SCOTUS ruling, but assumes they have given the longest timeline they can before fines are assessed. It's going to cost pretty much all the hospitals in FL some real staffing issues, and none of them are happy.

FL may be kinda unique but we have a *bunch* of smaller DR's offices and medical clinics (Plastic  surgery, vasectomy, large private orthopedic groups, things like that) so the nurses and docs seem to think they can find work outside hospitals.

Combined with normal retirement  and non vaccine related burnout I know of two hospital groups here in Tampa that are yanking new hires out of the normal orientation pipeline and putting them in units (of which they get no choice) early.

I wouldn't  think all that makes an atmosphere where admins are excited about dumping staff in large numbers.

Perd Hapley

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Re: SCOTUS slaps down Biden OSHA vaccine mandate
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2022, 09:41:27 AM »

Opening a hospital isn't as easy as opening a car wash.

Yeah, but what if we open a hospital and it's disguised as a car wash? Huh? They won't see that comin'!
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