Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 131141 times)

dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #150 on: February 23, 2022, 06:53:27 AM »
Not wanting Ukraine in NATO =/= invading Ukraine themselves.

I am not mongering for a war of any sort, but it's worth remembering Putin has said several times as over the last 20 years he wants all the old SSR's back under the Russian flag.  I see no reason not to believe him that that is his goal.

De Selby

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #151 on: February 23, 2022, 07:36:42 AM »
Not wanting Ukraine in NATO =/= invading Ukraine themselves.

I am not mongering for a war of any sort, but it's worth remembering Putin has said several times as over the last 20 years he wants all the old SSR's back under the Russian flag.  I see no reason not to believe him that that is his goal.

Thats a limited goal however - what is actually bad for American citizens if he does that? What do we lose?
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French G.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #152 on: February 23, 2022, 08:01:03 AM »
We lose the chance to act before it is too late. This is a greenlight for a return to the days of boundary change by force. Although probably too late, we sat on our hands for Crimea. The Budapest accord between us, Britain, Russia is dead letter. The UN might as well not exist if two of the five permanent security Council members are leading a new world domination. The definite end of the post WWII peaceful period.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #153 on: February 23, 2022, 08:11:08 AM »
Thats a limited goal however - what is actually bad for American citizens if he does that? What do we lose?

Well, when he hits the Balkans we are obligated by treaty to intervene.  If it's going to happen anyways, why not nip it in the bud early?


Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #154 on: February 23, 2022, 08:45:02 AM »
I'm amazed that anyone here thinks it is a good idea or even any of our business what happens between Ukraine and Russia.

Canada goes full jackboot and Mexico is facilitating the southern invasion of our border...crickets.

We have met the globalist enemies of America and it is the citizens of the USA.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Ben

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #155 on: February 23, 2022, 08:50:57 AM »
Interesting tangent:

https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2022/02/23/cnn-guest-makes-a-pretty-good-argument-for-the-2nd-amendment/

I wonder if we'll see more lefties saying "yay guns" for Ukraine while continuing to try and take ours away?

It also has me wondering what arms are in Ukrainian citizens' hands? Are they being issued selective fire stuff to keep at home?
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #156 on: February 23, 2022, 09:03:55 AM »
Just what is our direct national interest in Ukraine?

Why are we more concerned about Russian expansion than the countries of Europe?

Time to pull the plug on the empire guys. Being a nation is good enough.

If we have to go toe to toe with a first world enemy we better get our own house in order.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #157 on: February 23, 2022, 09:10:18 AM »
I'm not sure Europe could actually do that, energy-wise.  Or if it did manage to cut off Russia, it would hand even more power to the screaming beards.
One thing that would help a great deal is to lower gas prices and turn the US back into a natural gas exporter.  That would cut some of Russia's income and give them some limited competition in the European energy market.  Biden should reinstate all the Trump energy policies, but I really doubt that will happen.

Beyond that, I don't see much else we can do.  We already have sanctions on Russia.  Not sure if it is too late to remove some of the pipeline expertise that Biden authorized earlier.  IMO, European nations should be the ones to take a stand on this and they don't seem very interested.  That is one of the reasons I think NATO is more useless than it ought to be.  Too many members contribute very little and likely would not participate if real fighting broke out. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #158 on: February 23, 2022, 09:14:52 AM »
Truckers fill Moscow and peacefully protest government actions.

Putin declares martial law.

Putin freezes and seizes all donated funds as well as the protestors personal accounts.

Putin hauls the protesters vehicles away and the government says vehicles will be auctioned off.

Putin arrests over a hundred protesters and hold them without bail.

Putin and his government spread disinformation and propaganda about the protesters.

What does the US State Department have to say? The US media?

Tyranny on our northern border, tyranny in our own government, why is anyone thinking about going to war in Europe?

Hard Pass.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #159 on: February 23, 2022, 09:21:07 AM »
Just what is our direct national interest in Ukraine?

Why are we more concerned about Russian expansion than the countries of Europe?

Time to pull the plug on the empire guys. Being a nation is good enough.

If we have to go toe to toe with a first world enemy we better get our own house in order.
That part scares me a little bit.  Even in a limited war, we would get hurt pretty good even in victory.  Our likely adversaries are good enough to take advantage of our normal strategies and we have been fighting 3rd world terrorists for the last 20 years.  I don't know how well we are training to fight 1st world conflicts these days.  Looking at WWII, we took a lot of lumps before we gained the upper hand and even then we were fortunate not to take more losses. 

There were articles last year about mock military exercises in Great Britain where our units got annihilated by the British.  From what I heard, they used signals intelligence to locate our command and control, took it out with artillery and rockets and them mopped up the individual units.  The information was all unofficial and disputed I may have misinterpreted the information.  It just didn't sound good. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #160 on: February 23, 2022, 09:22:59 AM »
Truckers fill Moscow and peacefully protest government actions.

Putin freezes and seizes all donated funds as well as the protestors personal accounts.

Putin hauls the protesters vehicles away and the government says vehicles will be auctioned off.

Putin arrests over a hundred protesters and hold them without bail.

Putin and his government spread disinformation and propaganda about the protesters.

What does the State Department have to say?

Tyranny on our northern border, tyranny in our own government, why is anyone thinking about going to war in Europe?

Hard Pass.
Wrong country.  That is up there in the People's Republic of Canada.   
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #161 on: February 23, 2022, 09:24:31 AM »
Wrong country.  That is up there in the People's Republic of Canada.   
I embellished my post a little more for your guys enjoyment and edification.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Jim147

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #162 on: February 23, 2022, 09:29:24 AM »
Even with a limited war we would lose more lives in one day then we did in 20 years of the sand.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

dogmush

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #163 on: February 23, 2022, 09:31:55 AM »
I'm amazed that anyone here thinks it is a good idea or even any of our business what happens between Ukraine and Russia.

I didn't say it was a good idea, I just said I could see what was coming down the road.  I actually don't think anyone in the west cares enough about Ukraine to actually go to war, even if it were a good idea.  I suspect we are going to let Russia take at least some chunks of Ukraine if not the whole thing.  It is what it is.  If I were going to bet I'd say Russia will look back to finish the job of conquering Georgia next.  After that things get stickier.  If Ukraine falls and Belarus is already basically under control that puts Russia right on the borders of Poland (former Warsaw Pact) and Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia (Former SSRs).  Those countries are all NATO members, and Lithuania and Latvia have large Expat and ethnic populations in the US to raise a fuss, as well as US trained and educated people in positions of power in their respective countries.  I suspect that even a "minor" incursion in any of those countries would be met with US military force.  I don't know if Russia believes that though.

That also doesn't take into account that even if we want to stay out of the Russia-Ukraine thing, accidents happen and there are a lot of US and Allied troops and equipment in close proximity to where the fighting will be.  To quote "Hunt for Red October"
Quote
It would be well for your government to consider that having your ships and ours, your aircraft and ours, in such proximity... is inherently DANGEROUS. Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador.
  We got closer to shooting it out with Russia in Syria than I think most people realize.

And as previously mentioned letting folks just conquer territory they want sets an example, one I'm sure an aggressive China is paying attention to.  Much like Ukraine, I don't know if we are willing to go to war over Taiwan (whether that is a good idea or not is a separate discussion)  But we have Mutual Defense treaties with The Philippines, South Korea, and Japan, all of which are in the crosshairs if China starts expanding territory instead of just influence.

Do all of those things mean war is a good idea?  No. But it's worth being aware of the shitstorm coming down the road so we may try and dodge at least some of it.  It is in the US national interest not to be a second or third tier country in a world being carved up by Sino-Russian expansionism. 

Perhaps we'll get lucky and find out that Kiev managed to keep an old Soviet nuke, and they'll return it to the Kremlin.

French G.

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #164 on: February 23, 2022, 09:52:50 AM »
War certainly is not a great idea. However no one said empire. I certainly am not a globalist enemy of this country. We cannot just be a nation. Isolationist utopian Americans directly bought us ww2. We wanted to be world leaders after ww1 and then abdicated. Because Mr. He kept us out of war did so damn good. Keep living in your libertarian fantasy land where all nations are equivalent and it’s none of my business. When the real empire builders get done devouring the world their eyes will set on North America. We defend our interest now or be unable to later.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #165 on: February 23, 2022, 12:37:09 PM »
War certainly is not a great idea. we agree
However no one said empire.we are functionally an empire, I said it
I certainly am not a globalist enemy of this country.then take care not to do the bidding of the globalists
We cannot just be a nation wrong, we can.
Isolationist utopian Americans directly bought us ww2. nonsense, FDR made damn sure we got involved
We wanted to be world leaders after ww1 and then abdicated.what's this we? long before my time
Because Mr. He kept us out of war did so damn good. Keep living in your libertarian fantasy land I'm not a libertarian
where all nations are equivalent and it’s none of my business. It is literally none of your business what happens between Russia and Ukraine, you have zero say in the matter

When the real empire builders get done devouring the world their eyes will set on North America.I'm seeing one empire right now that sticks its military nose into everyone's business, us

We defend our interest now or be unable to later.making the world safe for globo/homo?

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Lennyjoe

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #166 on: February 23, 2022, 03:34:51 PM »
At what point does China whack Taiwan while Joes trying to be tough on Russia for What they’re doing to Ukraine?

MechAg94

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #167 on: February 23, 2022, 04:50:32 PM »
War certainly is not a great idea. However no one said empire. I certainly am not a globalist enemy of this country. We cannot just be a nation. Isolationist utopian Americans directly bought us ww2. We wanted to be world leaders after ww1 and then abdicated. Because Mr. He kept us out of war did so damn good. Keep living in your libertarian fantasy land where all nations are equivalent and it’s none of my business. When the real empire builders get done devouring the world their eyes will set on North America. We defend our interest now or be unable to later.

I can agree with the sentiment, I am just not sure a nation in the middle of Asia on the border of Russia is where we want to draw the line.  Our NATO allies yes, but not there.  It would have helped if people like Biden in this country hadn't been playing selfish political games in the Ukraine for the last 15 years.  It would also help if we hadn't been bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq for the last 20 years.  I don't know if we are ready for it. 

On the other stuff, just my opinion:  (Might be a good side discussion.)  =)
1.  We were never in a position to stop WWII from happening.  That goes to Britain and France among others.  I don't know how much influence we really had in Europe.  We had taken a bunch of diplomatic steps against Japan over their invasion of China and elsewhere. 
2.  After WWI, we elected to maintain a decent navy first.  That was where the military funding went.  I don't think anyone would have accepted maintaining a sizable army after WWI in addition to the navy. 
3.  President Wilson wanted to be a world leader after WWI.  I don't think anyone else was interested since the treaty was not ratified.  IMO, the League of Nations would have been more useless than the UN is today.  I don't think it would have prevented anything if it still existed by the late 30's. 
4.  I don't know how much influence the US had in the outcome and treaties of WWI.  I don't know what it would have taken to keep the seeds of WWII from being planted. 
5.  I have heard one of our goals in setting up the Washington Naval Treaty after WWI was the split up Great Britain and Japan who were fairly close prior to that.  I am curious if they would have still had good relations before WWII once Japan started invading China.  The need to get oil and other resources is part of the reason they attacked us.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #168 on: February 23, 2022, 08:59:29 PM »
That we can have an informed opinion on the matter presupposes we actually know what is really going on.

We are on a need to know basis and it has been determined we don't need to know.

My default is no military action, no war, unless it can be clearly demonstrated that it is necessary for the security of the USA.

The politicians and top military brass burned through all the good will and any trust I used to have in them.

Why do we consistently keep believing and giving the benefit of the doubt to demonstrable liars?   
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

MillCreek

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #169 on: February 23, 2022, 10:13:59 PM »
ABC news just broke in to announce the start of an apparent invasion.
_____________
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Lennyjoe

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #170 on: February 23, 2022, 10:55:59 PM »
Yep cruise misses and bombing has begun along with more cyber attacks.  Russia went all in and threatened anyone who thinks of intervening

sumpnz

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #171 on: February 23, 2022, 11:04:01 PM »
My read on Ukraine.  Thankfully we’re not Ukrainian.  I don’t think this will impact us much here.  Stock market will be volatile.  Gas prices will spike.  But as long as Biden’s handlers don’t do something galacticly stupid we will see little meaningful effect.  If Biden’s handlers decide to invade Ukraine to push out the Russians, or something comparably idiotic it could go pear shaped in very unpredictable ways.

Jim147

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #172 on: February 23, 2022, 11:16:59 PM »
My read on Ukraine.  Thankfully we’re not Ukrainian.  I don’t think this will impact us much here.  Stock market will be volatile.  Gas prices will spike.  But as long as Biden’s handlers don’t do something galacticly stupid we will see little meaningful effect.  If Biden’s handlers decide to invade Ukraine to push out the Russians, or something comparably idiotic it could go pear shaped in very unpredictable ways.

Well they haven't gotten anything right so far so I plan on the worst case.
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #173 on: February 23, 2022, 11:20:54 PM »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

Lennyjoe

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #174 on: February 23, 2022, 11:23:51 PM »
Russian paratroopers on ground now in Kiev airport.

FUNKER530 has live feeds going on right now with constant updates.