Author Topic: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....  (Read 131107 times)

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #550 on: March 04, 2022, 09:54:50 AM »
Wrong.  You haven't looked at his history, what he has done in his twenty-plus years in power.  Consider everything he has done to remain in power.  He is certainly sociopathic, and very probably much worse.  Megalomania comes to mind.
The world has been treating Putin as a rational actor.  He is not.

He is a psycopath, that doesn't mean he is unstable or crazy.

This wasn't an irrational move on his part. He clearly laid out what would happen if NATO pursued Ukraine. He probably has 1/3 to 1/2 of the Ukrainians on his side. When his guy was "elected" the west supported the coup that put the current regime in power. These are all bad guys.

If I can figure this stuff out then it's obvious the folks actually making moves know more. This looks like a move by the west against Russia. They had to know Russia would not tolerate NATO on their border.

 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #551 on: March 04, 2022, 10:02:52 AM »
I have had serious thoughts that maybe he's dying and he want his legacy to be that of bringing the Empire back together as Czar Putin I

This is what we are getting from our media, everyone's a mind reader. Putin has actually talked about this a lot, military action was all but promised.

Go back and watch that discussion from 2015 at the University of Chicago I posted. The Russian position has been pretty consistent all along. All attempts at compromise (a neutral Ukraine) were rebuffed by the west. The western empire decided it wanted Ukraine and poured resources into making it happen.

We have goaded on and financed the pro west movement there for over a decade and now basically have abandoned them as Putin wrecks their country.   

When Biden said "go get him" he was telling the empire to destroy Putin.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

DittoHead

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #552 on: March 04, 2022, 10:04:37 AM »
As far as bordering countries joining NATO. A lot of these countries still have strong memories of being unwilling members of the Russian Empire and the later Soviet Union and suffering heavily under their rule and only recently regained their independence. Putin is not helping by giving every indication he longs for the old days of the empire.
Exactly correct.
The real “threat” Russia faces today, in other words, is the threat of decisively losing its empire. NATO enlargement, and Western policy more generally, has taken the sovereignty of countries in Eastern Europe as an unabashed goal. Today’s diplomatic haggling over missile placements, troop limits, nuclear postures, and security guarantees have made little progress because there’s no agreement on the fundamental issue. At stake is whether Russia has the right to be surrounded by a belt of countries that it can bully.

Last summer, Putin published a high-profile article titled “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians.” The first sentence of the piece reiterated Putin’s view that Russians and Ukrainians were “a single whole.” The conclusion of the article warns “true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.” At stake today is whether the Kremlin will impose militarily the regime of partial sovereignty on its neighbors that Russian leaders have pursued since the day of Tsar Peter. Alternatively, the Kremlin could accept its territorial limits and agree to the security guarantees that it says it wants. The country most in need of a credible security guarantee isn’t Russia. It's Ukraine.
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #553 on: March 04, 2022, 10:05:16 AM »
NATO was the enemy of Russia/USSR for 45 years. Do you expect Russia to forget that as NATO pursues moving right on to their border?

The western empire wants what the western empire wants.

Russia doesn't stand a chance against the western empire, unless China takes Russia's side.

I'm thinking China will sell Russia down the river. The globalists and China must want Russia weakened.

If we have driven Russia and China closer together with this fiasco that might be worse yet.

Why was NATO the enemy of the SU? Just to be mean? Do you history much?
Russia doesn't stand a chance against the "western empire" yes, but what chance do the small countries bordering Russia have against Russia. A Russia under a ruthless leader that has given every indication he wants to bring back the days of the Empire and/or Soviet Union? What did you expect them to do?
You may be willing and able to forget history they're not.

As far China an Russian they're just using each other for sex so to speak and will turn on each other in a heart beat and they both know it.

Don't get me wrong, NATO is not 100% blameless in this, I can understand Russia's feeling in this, to a point. But I seriously don't think we would be at this point if it wasn't for Putin.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #554 on: March 04, 2022, 10:07:06 AM »
Enjoy your war.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

DittoHead

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #555 on: March 04, 2022, 10:07:32 AM »
In the moral, catatonic stupor America finds itself in today it is only disagreement we seek, and the more virulent that disagreement, the better.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #556 on: March 04, 2022, 10:12:44 AM »
Enjoy your war.

Enjoy sitting warm and comfortable in you home without a rather large and hungry bear scratching at your cabin door.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #557 on: March 04, 2022, 10:13:03 AM »
Putin's war.
Another neocon war.

Just because Putin is a bad guy that doesn't justify what has preceded the fireworks.

This war was all but orchestrated by the west.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Nick1911

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #558 on: March 04, 2022, 10:13:36 AM »
Ukraine is of serious strategic value to Russia.
Ukraine has no strategic value to the USA.

True, but the outrage is far from being only in the US.  If anything, European countries seem to be taking point on this.  They are rather pissed that a democracy is under attack, and acting accordingly.  For example: NATO couldn't get Germany to meet it's military commitments for decades, Putin got them there in 72 hours.  Even formerly neutral countries like Sweden and Finland are sending weapons.

All I can figure is the globalists have decided it's time to destroy Russia. That is the only reason I can imagine for promoting EU and NATO membership for a country that is so crucial to Russia strategically. Putin has made it clear for at least a decade that there would be a military response to any attempt to bring Ukraine into NATO. This leads me to believe the globalists wanted war in Ukraine as a pretense to destroy Russia financially.

I don't believe that there is some shadowy consortium of global governance that controls the world.  It's reading order and coherence into a place where there is none.  I think that all of these governments are independent, voluntarily form alliances and treaties, and act in their own self interest.

The countries that border Russia are looked at by Russia much like we hold our Monroe Doctrine. NATO troops in a bordering country will not be tolerated, anymore than we would tolerate Chinese troops stationed in Canada or Russian troops in Mexico.

Agreed, they aren't happy about bordering countries joining an enemy military alliance, or their people and culture moving further towards western democratization.  I'm sure both powers were and are attempting to sway those people towards their point of view.  Maybe this is americentrism, but I think these people - who know what the russian system looks like from the soviet days - are moving further westward of their own volition.  The system offers more opportunities, wealth and freedoms.   There's a reason the DDR had to build a wall to keep people in.

Putin is not a madman, he is not unstable. He is going to take over all of Ukraine, probably wreck the infrastructure possibly giving some of it back, but only with ironclad guarantees of Ukraine neutrality going forward.

Well, he certainly seems to have miscalculated, unless his plan was to get embarrassed on the world stage, unite Europe, strengthen NATO, push neutral countries towards it, crater his own economy, restart an arms race, restart the cold war, and create anti-Russian sentiment globally.

Angel Eyes

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #559 on: March 04, 2022, 10:23:25 AM »
^^^When my wife and I took a Nordic/Russia/Baltics cruise a couple of years ago, I was struck by all the memorials to Soviet aggression in the Baltics compared to almost none regarding the Nazis. I wondered if that was in part trying to overlook the history of colloboration with the Nazis in some of the countries.

... or the fact that Nazi Germany controlled the Baltic states for just a few years while the Soviets controlled them for decades.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #560 on: March 04, 2022, 10:25:20 AM »
I have had serious thoughts that maybe he's dying and he want his legacy to be that of bringing the Empire back together as Czar Putin I

This is what we are getting from our media, everyone's a mind reader. Putin has actually talked about this a lot, military action was all but promised.

Go back and watch that discussion from 2015 at the University of Chicago I posted. The Russian position has been pretty consistent all along. All attempts at compromise (a neutral Ukraine) were rebuffed by the west. The western empire decided it wanted Ukraine and poured resources into making it happen.

We have goaded on and financed the pro west movement there for over a decade and now basically have abandoned them as Putin wrecks their country.   

When Biden said "go get him" he was telling the empire to destroy Putin.

Just speculation on my part.
When you're dealing with someone who from our, my, point of view who just did something insane maybe an there's an insane reason. Despots have done crazier things in the past. Again just speculation.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #561 on: March 04, 2022, 10:32:44 AM »
What is it with him and sitting all alone at the end of long tables?
COVID fears?






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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #562 on: March 04, 2022, 10:34:58 AM »
Just speculation on my part.
When you're dealing with someone who from our, my, point of view just did something insane maybe an there's an insane reason. Despots have done crazier things in the past. Again just speculation.

If you watched the UoC video from 2015 you would see there is very little that is insane about his actions. The west knew exactly what he was going to do. Hopefully we have planned this out better than Russia and Putin.

NATO being on Russia's border was seen as an existential threat by Russia. No amount of justifications on our side changes the reality on the ground. NATO on the border was the same as NATO declaring "war" on Russia as far as Putin is concerned. They don't view us as benevolent bringers of peace and safety but as a global empire that want to eventually move into Russia.

Someone is weak on history and foreign policy and it's not me.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #563 on: March 04, 2022, 10:42:51 AM »

Someone is weak on history and foreign policy and it's not me.

You're failing to connect how the first is influencing the second.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #564 on: March 04, 2022, 10:49:32 AM »
You're failing to connect how the first influences the second.
Your failing to understand the adversaries motivations, you think he is crazy or insane.

I guarantee you that both Russia and the west have been wargaming these events for many years. There is very little going on that is "surprising" to the folks on both sides calling the shots.

The west thinks they can win this economically. Russia's only play to stop NATO from moving into Ukraine was militarily. Both sides have been preparing for these events for a while now.

Better hope we have smarter guys than Putin and Xi.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #565 on: March 04, 2022, 10:53:14 AM »
Your failing to understand the adversaries motivations, you think he is crazy or insane.

I guarantee you that both Russia and the west have been wargaming these events for many years. There is very little going on that is "surprising" to the folks on both sides calling the shots.

The west thinks they can win this economically. Russia's only play to stop NATO from moving into Ukraine was militarily. Both sides have been preparing for these events for a while now.

Better hope we have smarter guys than Putin and Xi.

Actually I've viewed Putin more as a pragmatist. But even the smartest man may made a stupid mistake that may appear to many insane.
Doesn't mean I can't do a little "insane" speculation.
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #566 on: March 04, 2022, 10:57:06 AM »
As I've told people
Putin is gonna do what Putin is gonna to do
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 11:19:07 AM by WLJ »
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #567 on: March 04, 2022, 10:59:54 AM »
An awful lot of WTF? moments in history and I think we're in one of them.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #568 on: March 04, 2022, 11:21:19 AM »
We still have the move of refusing to buy oil from Russia. It's interesting that we still are giving them billions of dollars for oil while trying to wage economic war on them.

There are still some weird holes in my ideas like the above, but I think what I believe explains what's going on better than the official story.

Nearly half of Ukraine did not want to join the EU or NATO, at least that was true in around 2015. Putin might just keep everything east of the Dnieper River and give the rest back if there are assurances they will not join NATO. 
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

cordex

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #569 on: March 04, 2022, 11:22:32 AM »
NATO being on Russia's border was seen as an existential threat by Russia. No amount of justifications on our side changes the reality on the ground. NATO on the border was the same as NATO declaring "war" on Russia as far as Putin is concerned. They don't view us as benevolent bringers of peace and safety but as a global empire that want to eventually move into Russia.
Estonia and Latvia.  And Norway, sort of.  Lithuania and Poland if you consider Belarus to be an extension of Russia.

I don't think Putin honestly believes NATO on his border is a threat.  From what I've seen, I think that was merely his weak justification for a much more pragmatic economic conflict relating to the likelihood of Ukraine supplanting Russia's position as a primary provider of natural gas and oil to Europe, thereby savaging Russia's GDP and more importantly government income via state-controlled energy firms, so say nothing of threatening the wealth of Putin's powerful buddies.

MillCreek

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #570 on: March 04, 2022, 11:24:43 AM »
... or the fact that Nazi Germany controlled the Baltic states for just a few years while the Soviets controlled them for decades.

The Nazis were initially seen in the Baltics as liberating them from the Soviet yoke but things went downhill from there. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #571 on: March 04, 2022, 11:30:31 AM »
There's this myth going around that we're not doing a no-fly zone over Ukraine because it could provoke a much larger conflict. The truth is, our military is simply too busy defending our capital from the white supremacist threat.
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Ron

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #572 on: March 04, 2022, 11:35:55 AM »
Estonia and Latvia.  And Norway, sort of.  Lithuania and Poland if you consider Belarus to be an extension of Russia.

I don't think Putin honestly believes NATO on his border is a threat.  From what I've seen, I think that was merely his weak justification for a much more pragmatic economic conflict relating to the likelihood of Ukraine supplanting Russia's position as a primary provider of natural gas and oil to Europe, thereby savaging Russia's GDP and more importantly government income via state-controlled energy firms, so say nothing of threatening the wealth of Putin's powerful buddies.

Yea, there are a lot of moving pieces there for sure. I'm not sure how you can believe NATO moving forces onto Russians border in such a strategic location would not be considered a threat. Western influence/control of Ukraine's energy having the potential of savaging Russia's GDP isn't considered a Russian security concern?

I'm no fan of Putin or Russia but the more I look into this the more it looks like it is the west who has insisted on pushing the issue.

Regarding the northern countries that joined NATO in 2004 my understanding is Russia was not in very good shape back then and didn't have much recourse.

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #573 on: March 04, 2022, 11:42:20 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I am seeing plenty of blame to go around but see 80-90% of the blame going to Putin.

Was Ukraine's government a bit worrisome in some regards? Yes
Am I trouble by some aspects in how it came to power? Yes
Am I troubled by reported connections between certain members of our government and Ukraine? Yes
Was Ukraine harassing it's Russian speaking population? Yes, which leads to the next question.
Was Russia fermenting much of that? Yes but Ukraine is not totally blameless.
Was Ukraine going to join NATO? Not really sure if it really going to happen but I CAN see Russia's stance on that but, next questions.
Were Russian troops already conducting operations in the disputed areas? Yes, limited but yes
Did Russia already invade and take over part of Ukraine? Yes
Would Ukraine be taking about joining NATO if Russia hadn't invaded The Crimea? Don't know but I suspect perhaps not.
Was Putin saying Ukrainians and Russians are one people while massing troops? Yes. If you're Ukrainian that had to scare you.
Did Ukraine have a historical reason to fear Russian? Yes Yes Yes
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WLJ

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Re: War in Eastern Europe, what's it good for ....
« Reply #574 on: March 04, 2022, 11:54:51 AM »
Things that make you go Hmmm
Could be media exaggerating somewhat don't know yet.

Quote
Surge in arrivals in Finland from Russia

John Simpson

World Affairs Editor, Vaalima in Finland
Border queue
BBCCopyright: BBC

At Finland’s border crossing with Russia at Vaalimaa, 120 miles (193 kilometres) east of Helsinki, buses and cars stop for passport and customs checks.

These aren’t Ukrainians, they’re Russians - and although the flow isn't heavy, it is constant.

People are anxious to get out of Russia because there has been a persistent rumour that Vladimir Putin’s government might soon introduce martial law to deal with demonstrations against the invasion of Ukraine.

We spoke to one young Russian woman who was leaving for the West. She was in despair at what has been happening.

"People in Ukraine are our people – our family," she says. "We shouldn't be killing them."

Would she think of going back, I asked?

"Not while our dreadful government is there. It is so, so sad."

There's immense sympathy for people like her in Finland, just as there is for Ukraine and its inhabitants.

This sympathy, and the fear that Russia might lash out at other neighbours like Finland itself, is changing attitudes to Finland’s traditional neutrality.

According to the latest opinion polls, a growing majority of Finns believe that it’s time for their country to join Nato and get the protection that membership of the alliance would bring.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60532634
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